《卡片笔记写作法》作者采访问答文稿 2020 年
知识管理直播采访 Interview and Q&A with Sönke Ahrens on How to Take Smart Notes_哔哩哔哩_bilibili
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1wk4y1R7ng/
2022-11-10 16:05:33 CST|56m 4s
Keywords:
更多笔记、更多的问题、更多的东西、许多音符、旧笔记、广泛的笔记、文学笔记、几个问题、更多的时间、足够的笔记、独立笔记、音符序列、杂乱无章的笔记、一般说明、特别注意、模糊的笔记、注意、适当的音符
Transcript:
Tiago Forte 00:00
但我想欢迎你们所有人参加这次采访和问答。作者希望与作者如何采取聪明。笔记真的是不可思议的笔记书，需要更多的学习。
Tiago Forte 00:13
生产力个人成长项目管理，在过去的几个月里，我有幸深深沉浸其中。我们要花一个小时。在接下来的一个小时左右，我的电话很难停下来。我们要问时髦的问题，假设他出现了一些问题，实际上是相当多的问题，你们都发了这些问题，我面前有非常非常好的问题。嗯，这次电话会议的动力是我写的一篇总结这本书的文章。如果有人有链接并可以放弃它。在聊天中。我会很感激的，那里，我们走吧？我看到你的歌键。我将在这里取消静音欢迎我只是做一个简短的介绍。
Sönke Ahrens 01:06
好了，现在我应该解除静音了。
Tiago Forte 01:08
好的，很好，顺便说一下。你的名字怎么发音？是一个闷闷不乐的扎姆库吗？哦哇好的zonca好的？这样更好吗？
Sönke Ahrens 01:18
听起来不错。
Tiago Forte 01:19
好的完美？我有人工智能，对说英语的人来说也有一个不寻常的名字，所以我很同情。但是是啊，所以几个几个方向。请注意，我们首先开始的是聊天，如果您单击工具栏中的聊天按钮，您的缩放工具栏。您会注意到侧面弹出一个窗口。我们实际上鼓励在这些电话上建立反向渠道。您可以在评论中添加问题链接到我们提到的其他资源，或者即使我们没有提到我鼓励您介绍自己。这个电话里有一些非常非常迷人的人，所以聊天记录肯定是活跃的。我会分享聊天记录，减去任何私人信息，所以不要觉得你必须写下任何链接、参考资料或书名。我会和你分享所有这些，你可以听着。第二件事是，我们真的鼓励你打开你的摄像头，如果你有，如果可以的话，打开你的网络摄像头。
Tiago Forte 02:16
对我们俩来说，看到我们拥有的各种各样的人，看到你的脸，看到他们的反应，真的很有帮助。不管是兴奋还是无聊。为了回应我们所说的，我们可以实时做出回应，这就是这些直播的好处。
Tiago Forte 02:31
不过，这也是我们这样做的原因。我看到我们有来自世界各地的人，甚至不会试着读出名字。我们有超过一千人注册了这个电话，这是非常不可思议的，真的，真的很酷。所以。让我们在这里开始吧。我想知道你是否能把你的股票给我们。你喜欢什么？你如何描述你的工作我知道你参与了各种各样的事情，但是如果你能告诉我们一点你在你的背景下所做的工作。
Sönke Ahrens 03:06
首先，谢谢你邀请我，我对你的兴趣很兴奋。你知道那真的很棒，安妮。我目前在德国埃森大学工作，我的主要领域是。教育哲学我也研究过科学哲学，所以这就是我写的东西，所以我对大脑之外的思考感兴趣。我对如何使用工具更感兴趣。建立复杂的想法。我知道我强调这本书非常有成效，写了很多，但我认为。我的主要兴趣是如何更好地思考。是的，这就是我大多数时候的想法。
Tiago Forte 04:06
好的，太好了，你能谈谈你的教练吗？一些人很好奇你的教练是什么样的，他们是否能被你教练。
Sönke Ahrens 04:17
是的，是的，这不是我的主菜。目前的领域，所以我几乎没有时间在那里，只有几个插槽和一个我的背景是在系统。很高兴所以我做咨询，但目前在线咨询或多或少只涉及总成本，但将来如果我更少。我忙于在大学教书。我当然会重新启动我的网站，然后提供更多的背景信息。所以如果你订阅我的邮件列表。我会随时向你通报这样的事情。
Tiago Forte 05:08
好吧，如果有人不介意抓住他叔叔网站的链接并把它贴在聊天中，或者就像你有它一样。我会很感激的。这是一个合作练习，正如你所看到的，我们所有人都做出了贡献。这很有趣。让我们看看我想补充几个问题。我想在开始的时候问几个问题什么？告诉我们一点，这样我们就知道一点你的背景，在你做的所有事情中，这本书的背景怎么样？是什么让你思考，认为这真的很重要，很有必要，是什么导致了它的创造。好吧。
Sönke Ahrens 05:48
这在一定程度上是一个拖延项目，所以我正在努力。我的下一本书仍在制作中，我努力寻找合适的工具和工具。在某种程度上，这很讽刺，因为我研究尼古拉斯·卢蒙的理论有一段时间了。我从来没有把他的实际工作与解决柯尔斯顿那严重的是，直到我真的发现他的某种方式。思考，更认真地思考大脑之外的事情，分散思想，努力去做。使用技术和工具来提高复杂性，这是与理论本身真正相互关联的东西。
Sönke Ahrens 06:59
当然，我尝试了不同的写作方式，做笔记，我希望如此。我可以避免人们犯很多我犯的错误。希望如此。鼓励人们做更多的笔记。因为仅仅做更多的笔记就会有很大的不同，我确实认为。一定程度的？挑战你自己和你的想法，我们需要某种外部大脑和。这是我在教学中想了很多的事情，因为教学仍然不是好的，你怎么能挑战假设？你怎么能挑战学生？你怎么能告诉自己？你身边并不总是有人挑战你，做笔记对你有很大帮助。尤其是。
Sönke Ahrens 08:23
反对确认偏见。我就是它，它提醒你你实际上在想什么，它迫使你让它更明确，所以我的主要？安希望为人们提供改进的系统，可以改善思维和帮助。
Sönke Ahrens 08:53
2.让事情变得更容易是因为？很多挣扎。我在写作的早期只是再次发现事物。记住。我是如何思考一些事情的，只有当你能比较笔记时，你才能真正看到不同，因为你的大脑总是适应你目前的状态。这样想是主要的想法和。我也希望能激发一些。
Sönke Ahrens 09:43
讨论我们如何组织高等教育，因为我认为高等教育仍然非常盲目。沿着旧的想法。你必须有一个计划在手，你必须先提出一个假设，然后你做这项工作，这是一种思考我的方式。相信是完全错误的。技术可以帮助实现更开放的流程，更开放地改变。因此，如果技术也能以这种方式提供帮助。是否标志着关于如何改变高等教育中的各种事情的讨论，这将是伟大的？当我副作用，是的。
Tiago Forte 10:48
天哪，我非常同意。对此阿门？是的。你在课堂上教zettelkasten系统吗？你训练你吗？学生们还是他们必须在课堂外发现它？所以嗯。
Sönke Ahrens 11:08
我知道你之前给我发的一个问题，你的一辆观景车。被问到你如何说服学生使用这个系统或写更多的钉子和？这很难，因为学生们真的没有。适当笔记的价值，采取系统通常是那些在他们的期末考试，有写论文的挑战，并希望他们已经开始早。刚开始学习的学生，对于那些想使用它的人来说，这是最好的东西，通常从学校就有这种心态。
Sönke Ahrens 12:02
在那里你得到一些包裹，只是拿盒子，而不是真正抓住？记笔记的重要性，如果你作为教授告诉他们这真的很重要。他们通常会想，我不会去2。教授和写书，所以也许这有点，太多了，所以我的解决方案是。
Sönke Ahrens 12:35
春天年长的和年轻的学生在一起，让年长的史蒂文斯解释了帮助学生的重要性，因为他们更可信，他们知道一天中晚些时候会发生的斗争。可以向那些刚开始很好的人解释这真的是一个优势。如果你早点开始，如果你一路上调整系统，拥有一个完美的系统并不重要。只是写了很多，所以一些导师在这方面做得很好，所以这些是。说服学生多做笔记的方法。
Tiago Forte 13:23
是的，我喜欢。我喜欢它。我提醒你，如果你让人们驼背，那就在投资中锻炼身体。洗牌，表现得像他们的老人，或者感受到变老的感觉，然后突然，他们想投资更多。他们想存更多的钱，他们想把钱存入退休账户。就像你把他们的现在和他们未来的自己联系起来。这会改变行为吗？
Tiago Forte 13:47
我非常喜欢它，好吧，所以你提到了你。你从Nicholas Lumens输出就是内容。工作也是实用的系统，就像你所做的那样，让你感到惊讶。当你真正研究和深入这个金属铸件的细节时，有什么让你感到惊讶的吗？
Sönke Ahrens 14:12
嗯。我不确定是否有很多惊喜。更重要的是，我仍然非常喜欢这种输出。然后。是的，我是说理论上有问题。我仍然对你使用的技术如何塑造你的思维感兴趣？这种理论，你可以从那里发展。安。但我认为主要的惊喜是很多惊喜。这几乎就是它被描述的方式。没有隐藏的秘密，所以这可能是主要的惊喜。
Tiago Forte 15:05
是的，我注意到在很多问题中，就像你知道的，关于你如何做的非常具体的步骤的如此详细的问题，感觉就像人们试图对你知道的药水进行逆向工程。这种神奇的药水，如果他们能把比例调得恰到好处的话。我会的是的。
Sönke Ahrens 15:29
安井II知道的。缺乏循序渐进的描述和。我完全理解这是一个整洁的，我一定会提供这样的东西。现在重要的是，一旦我完全相信一个持久的软件，我就可以全心全意地开发它。建议使用它，因为你只能做一步一步的描述。
Sönke Ahrens 16:11
当您决定使用的技术或您使用的软件时？我是说，你不需要一步一步的描述。当你用笔和纸写字时，会有更多的步骤，因为步骤就在那里，而不是太多？我说过，我认为尝试遵循一个循序渐进的过程可能会有误解，因为首先你需要根据自己的需要调整它。这本书不仅仅是由读者阅读的。社会科学的学者，但许多人有兴趣在非常不同的领域工作，你需要适应这一点，我目前的主要建议是这样的。软件，因为它是。我们坚持你最喜欢的东西。不要试图建立一个全新的系统，因为你可能会一次又一次地终止切换系统，从而降低切换成本。坚持你所拥有的，看看什么对你真正有效，你把重点放在哪里，这可能是有意义的，这实际上取决于你的工作类型，所以学者肯定会有更多的重点。
Sönke Ahrens 17:42
上。参考系和。文献指出，当你发展关于你的业务的想法时，这并不重要。所以我会把更多的重点放在你的项目上。印度项目票据有多古老？Nb.好吧，有了层次结构就没问题了。它只是不应该被硬连接到系统中。但你可以。当你清楚地知道你的项目是什么时，主题和子主题的层次要高得多，这对于许多更以业务为导向的人来说当然是正确的。有一个明确的。关于他们想要使用的内容的想法，所以你需要稍微调整一下，这就是我这么想的原因。至少一开始很重要。真正解释系统背后的原理和思想，并明确它与通常的方式不同的地方。
Sönke Ahrens 19:05
写作和做笔记。你明白原则。你处于一个非常好的位置，可以建立一些属于你自己的东西。你是吗？我认为这比试图复制你的风格要好得多？这可能不是你真正的领域。
Tiago Forte 19:33
非常同意你刚才说的话，这与我的经历非常相似，我是说，我只是我进入了我们的。我们的登机调查，我想昨天或前一天对我们的学生进行了调查，我看了一下问题，你使用哪个笔记应用程序，可能有30多个，可能有30多个不同的笔记应用程序？所以我们的方法是利用购物中心和2来做一种大脑，就像头脑融合的头脑风暴，我们把每个人都聚集在一起进行缩放通话，就像这样，我们分享笔记。你知道，我喜欢你所说的技术确实影响了你的思维方式，我发现有人会想出一个绝妙的主意，因为他们使用了一些晦涩难懂的笔记，使用了一些其他人很少做的功能的应用程序。这将给他们一个洞察力，然后他们可以把它带回来给我们，我们可以应用到我们自己的系统中。所以这有点挑战，但我希望系统的多样性和不同技术的多样性可以成为一种力量，而不是障碍。
Sönke Ahrens 20:36
我是。我确实认为你是对的，这个系统没有很大的独立性。走向应用程序。但与此同时，我确实认为软件的技术使用年限？有所作为，也许是一个重要的区别。但是。此刻我。我冷静地推荐一个至少对所有客户都有效的特定项目。我谈过了。我认为该软件不会让您产生巨大的影响。所以我也希望正在进行的讨论，以及正在进行的很多事情和发展会有一些泡沫。是的，这结合了许多不同工具的优点，而且不是存档。目前的大多数东西对收藏家来说都是真的。对于思维发展来说就不那么重要了。如果你有一个低门槛的写作，而你没有得到回报，那就有很大的不同。站在软件旁边，所以我真的很喜欢门槛低、简单的一切。在所有可能的微调和调整都不会过火的地方，绝对会看到什么会冒泡。
Tiago Forte 22:24
这是一个激动人心的时刻，所以正好赶上这个领域。我想再问你一个问题。但是我想从其他人那里得到两个问题。我会在台阶上做最后一件事。我会把这个谷歌文档放在聊天中，我给你发了一些密钥，我没有把它包含在我的原始文章中。因为我的文章更多的是关于原则，但我想我会把它作为附录添加到底部。这基本上是对8个步骤的总结。所以你在书中概述了使用这些小演员的方法，如果你想参考，或者如果其他人参考。那很好，但是但是嗯。让我们继续讨论其他问题，例如，最后一个问题。我想问你哪个是。人们对这个系统有什么误解？你注意到他们经常误解误解的东西是什么？
Tiago Forte 23:22
我想。安。
Sönke Ahrens 23:26
我不确定这是否真的符合问题。但是经常看到的是哪个是哪个真的不是我的本意，是人真的对自己很苛刻吗？没有一个完美的系统，我的意图是提供一些帮助你的东西。简化事情，让事情变得更容易，让事情变得更容易停下来。现在我经常看到人们不费吹灰之力地寻找一个完美的系统，这几乎就像人们现在因为事情没那么容易而惩罚自己。所以我想强调这一点。写作仍然很困难，当然，总是有与组织的斗争和我在哪里的问题？将这个想法与另一个想法联系起来，但这都是系统的一部分。在某些方面，所以一开始就有一个反馈循环。我也倾向于做很多。广泛的节点，但你很快意识到你并不真正知道。如何处理这个特定的音符，所以你调整了一点，然后下一个可能有点太短，所以我们再次调整。所有这些不一定是你做错了什么的迹象。只是还在学习曲线。我认为重要的是要接受写笔记的困难，理解和。经历艰难的税收，并试图用你自己的话重新表述它。这是一个挑战，但是他们解决了更糟糕的挑战，专注于而不是分心？
Tiago Forte 25:37
这是我最喜欢的这些系统的用途之一。如果你不知道你的笔记是怎么做的，笔记系统应该是在那上面做笔记，收集关于那上面的想法。是这样的。这个递归过程，你可以继续研究任何挑战你的东西，即使是系统本身。
Tiago Forte 25:55
我发现这是我笔记的一个非常有成效的用途。让我们看看这里OK。所以我给你们发了很多很好的问题。我要避开更多与技术相关的东西？因为我可以深入了解实现和功能的真正细粒度细节，所有这些东西也将在这里与大家见面。你能提供一种方法来指导那些没有做过类似事情的人开始吗？也许他们在这里和那里做了一些非常随意的笔记。但是除了这8个步骤之外，你还概述了你建议人们做的最初事情的一些设置。
Sönke Ahrens 26:44
是的，我想。你不应该做的是试图把你所有的笔记都转移到系统里，然后花时间在上面。更多的是关于。以不同的方式做。如果你把旧笔记集成到新系统中，那就太好了。但是当你无论如何都想使用它们的时候就去做。如果你一开始感觉良好，就有。
Sönke Ahrens 27:19
2连接笔记的可能性很小，然后试着明确你已经知道的，因为你永远不会从头开始，永远不会从空白页开始。仅仅试图明确你已经在想什么，这真的会有所不同，这会给你一点结构。这有助于你开始和？也许从你拥有的项目开始。没有。
Sönke Ahrens 28:00
嗯。不是每件事都必须从底部冒泡。你可以用你已经有的想法开始你的项目。从一个层次结构开始，这样铝集定制。
Sönke Ahrens 28:18
然后他从主题开始，因为他是一个主要的兴趣领域。当然，从那时起，它以不同的方式发展。主题变得越来越不重要，但它可以成为一个起点。只是不要硬线。层次结构进入你的系统，所以这可能是一个更一般的注意事项。关于如何开始是的。我想要。
Tiago Forte 28:46
到。我想强调你说的两件事，第一件事不是做大规模的包罗万象的迁移。在我自己的教学和辅导中。我曾经。我过去常这么做。我过去要么亲自和人们坐在一起，要么打电话，要么几个星期，引导他们完成这些迁移，这不可避免地需要时间。只是难以置信的大量时间，但也会被格式的小细节和无法翻译的东西以及架构和所有这些东西所吸引。
Tiago Forte 29:20
我现在教一些我称之为数字延禧的东西，这是一个想法，如果你有一堆杂乱无章的笔记堆积在一起，我建议每年一次，你只要把它们归档。在存档中放上日期，这样你就可以找到它们。如果你真的需要它们，但本质上是重新开始。你知道，不是把过去的组织或组织包袱带到未来，只是把它抛在脑后。
Tiago Forte 29:47
但是你说过不要总是从下往上开始。我曾经。当我是会写一篇博客文章。我的第一步是浏览成百上千的笔记并收集材料。但问题是，如果我的标准只是什么是有趣的？嗯，我的笔记系统里的一切都很有趣，这就是我保存它的原因。所以我会从写博客文章的第一步开始，就像。几十页的笔记，然后不得不花这么多时间打电话打电话打电话打电话才能下来，现在我做的更多的是你建议的我从哪开始？我知道什么是主旨？这总是更直观的事情，是立即想到的事情。然后我可以通过我的笔记，更严格地过滤我需要什么？对我来说，这只是一个支持这一点的感觉，所以我找到了类似的东西。
Sönke Ahrens 30:39
在找什么？这些问题也有帮助，因为我的意思是，很多事情都很有趣。但是当你开始思考什么是你自己的贡献或者什么的时候？是这个领域的问题，它给了你某种焦点，不需要一定是公式问题。但是。试着。指出困扰你的是什么，这里的问题可能是什么，并寻找极端问题的答案？是一个非常好的过滤器？
Tiago Forte 31:26
绝对绝对你能谈谈到目前为止人们有最多问题或困惑的原则是根据上下文而不是主题提交的原则吗？一个人说你怎么知道首先是什么？什么是上下文？我如何知道我的联系人是什么？如果你在其他地方说你不知道你将来要做什么，你怎么知道你的联系人是什么？你怎么能决定呢？当你想再看到这东西的时候。
Sönke Ahrens 31:59
当然，所以。联系人和主题不一定是相互排斥的，当然在特定上下文中的注释也可以是对特定主题的贡献。我想在这里强调的是收集的区别，如果你想在什么样的主题下做，我提交这个？安，当你问自己这个想法能在哪个音符序列中贡献哪种讨论时，这就像一个收藏家一样思考。
Sönke Ahrens 32:39
他更深入实际内容。例如，你会思考这些新信息对你以前的健康信念有什么不同。信息只能对向收藏添加一些东西有所不同。当然，在附加信息方面也有不同但也有差别。所以上下文更多的是关于内容级别的主题。几乎总是更多地思考它，当他寻找背景时。你想思考。所以你更多地考虑的是不同，而不是信息对你之前写的东西的影响。你看内容层面。你不是在看关键词，也不是在看索引。你想得很好。这只是一个补充，还是一个矛盾，正在扰乱我以前的助手。这就是，我必须改变我以前的想法，并试图明确这一点，所以这是关于尽快得到的。进入内容，而不是试图从你只是分类的层次上思考。这可能是主要的。
Sönke Ahrens 34:23
当涉及到收集笔记时，这也意味着很抱歉您可能想要编写节点。已经与预先存在的节点进行对话，因此真正将您的系统视为对话伙伴并进行回答。到您正在连接新节点的节点，这与仅仅收集非常不同。
Tiago Forte 34:58
绝对绝对，所以看起来上下文和主题是一样的。但是再往右走几步。你认为循环二阶效应你认为后果你认为它的用法？你为什么觉得这很难？为什么人们？找到挑战者了吗？为什么他们不自然地对此进行额外的思考。
Sönke Ahrens 35:23
嗯，我认为在开始时将任何类型的收集想法的软件视为一种收集是很自然的。
Sönke Ahrens 35:41
我不确定这是否真的很难，所以我一定认为这只是想法不同，因为我们喜欢收集东西，我们喜欢收集。感觉越来越多。似乎效率较低。她。电话和东西。我以前可能错了吗？新信息等等。
Sönke Ahrens 36:19
我的意思是这才是我真正感兴趣的。我对有一个伟大的输出不太感兴趣。只是将信息重新整理成新的博客文章或类似的东西。但我感兴趣的是如何发现葡萄酒是错误的？我们可以吗？如果你想改变以前的健康信念，这意味着要花很多时间，重新思考事情。你已经写下来了，所以也许。这可能是不太自然的部分。
Tiago Forte 36:59
是的，是的，这是这是非常有趣的。我在找类似的东西。我注意到的与人合作的东西在哪里？人们倾向于阅读他们已经知道的东西吗？提高效率的人学习提高效率的书，你知道，呃工程学。人们阅读工程学书籍文学。人们读文学书籍。我在我妻子的脸书上有过这样的经历。这都是强化的信息，我认为你真的只能在你上别人的过滤气泡时看到它，因为你自己的感觉完全正常和自然，我刚刚意识到，然后我看了看她的Kindle。我只是，我只是在浏览她的设备，有点窥探。我看着她的Kindle。她最喜欢的都是关于3、4或5个主题的书，然后我回到了我的Kindle，这是关于我已经知道的主题的完全相同风格的书，如果我在看书和评估的时候，我会觉得我已经朝着这个方向前进了。我知道或同意强调它的意义。你知道我是否可以，或者这已经是我心理模型的一部分。我已经可以推断了。如果它让我震惊，我甚至根本不保留它。令我惊讶的是，在某种程度上违背了我的期望，即使我不明白为什么。
Tiago Forte 38:10
那就更多了。我发现自己正朝着那个方向前进，因为这就像。我想打破它们。在某种学习模型中。我想在我现有的心理模型中找到最好的攻击向量。
Sönke Ahrens 38:23
是的，我认为这可能是目前的挑战，因为这没那么容易，你可以说，好吧，如果你思想开放，你就思想开放，你自己也会面对很多废话。你不想让自己封闭自己，但同时你也不想重复你已经知道的事情，所以这不是开放或封闭。关于你如何处理仍然挑战你的选择性？甚至写这个也很棘手。不是。是的，这是个挑战，但是。这是一个有趣的问题。
Tiago Forte 39:17
是啊，这个问题我想问自己当II。发现自己想要一个这样的职位？是我想正确还是想有效？因为我经常发现自己有这样一种渴望是对的。特别是在人际关系中，然后我问自己好吗？你想在这种情况下是对的还是你想有效而我通常去？我想成为？活跃的该死的。我想问你关于间隔重复的问题，我有几个问题。所以我对间隔重复有点不满。我觉得空间重复与外部大脑的想法相反。这就像你试图将外部大脑从人脑转移到外部大脑。用不同的记忆技术间隔重复，试图把它从外部世界带到你的大脑。这里有什么？你有没有间隔重复和/或任何记忆技巧，你对此有什么看法。
Sönke Ahrens 40:13
我不使用任何记忆技巧，因为我不需要记住任何东西。我不知道在什么情况下我需要记忆。我是说，我知道。有些职业有整齐的如果你的花蜜。你需要排练你的台词，你需要记住它们。但是。几乎总是需要记忆是不完整的人工设置在教育和。几乎在所有情况下，你都可以问自己。如果你在记忆方面有困难也许。试着更好地理解它，并有更多的例子与其他想法有更多的联系，以进一步阐述它。因为如果你已经完全阐述了一些东西，你通常不需要记住它。所以我对记忆不感兴趣，话虽如此。我喜欢。我喜欢把事情放在心上的感觉，而不是健忘的感觉，我确实这么认为。当你有一个你强迫自己的系统时。
Sönke Ahrens 41:43
定期重温，旧笔记是一种内置的。声誉或空间重复。但我不会说这是一种明确的记忆技巧。但我认为这就是原则。就我而言，这是在工作。我知道这是。凭经验。相当扎实的技术。
Tiago Forte 42:21
当然，你之前提到过有一些理论问题，你仍然在思考其中之一是技术如何影响你的思维方式，有没有任何当前或其他悬而未决的问题，你可以和我们分享？我很好奇你自己在这方面的学习前沿是什么？
Sönke Ahrens 42:42
嗯，我脑海中的一个问题是我之前提到的，如何保持开放的心态而不太分心，以及如何做到？安妮发现好不是一个平衡，因为平衡通常不是一个好主意，但。然而，如何反对你的偏见和。
Sönke Ahrens 43:14
嗯。处理。党派和过滤气泡。我们遇到了，如果有的话。教育可以帮助解决这个问题。是的，这是我或多或少想到的事情之一。在早些时候。更重要的是如何进去。怎样什么样的环境？我们需要让内部更有可能吗？从根本上改变我们的想法，而不仅仅是表面上的。但在一个非常基本的方式，所以我。研究了很多科学史，所以思想的外化和思维的盒子之外。
Sönke Ahrens 44:25
在里面。下一个永恒的大脑或在实验室中，以及用某物思考和在某物中思考之间的区别。这是我想进一步阐述的事情。
Tiago Forte 44:46
太好了，太好了，我也是，所以我已经涵盖了之前发送的大部分问题。有些我认为不完全适合这个电话，但让我们去聊天。我没能跟上很多很多的信息，但是继续吧。但是在聊天中，任何你想让孩子接触的东西。
Sönke Ahrens 45:08
嗯，我已经看到了很多关于软件、应用程序和技术的问题，我之前提到过。我不想深究这一点，因为我想到了其他。人们对可用的东西有更好的概述。
Sönke Ahrens 45:28
I.修补是罗马的时刻，所以这可能是我一步一步变成的描述。但是我还没有下定决心。因为我不是。在理解的层面。我仍然在我的网站上这个旧程序，但做了椭圆，这对我有用，但也有它的缺点。但这几乎适用于目前可用的技术，但我认为我需要解决这个问题，因为这是目前许多人最关心的问题，尤其是当你开始做决定的时候。
Sönke Ahrens 46:21
这个软件年，但是。是的，仅仅因为我使用它并不意味着它是最好的，我认为它是为这个系统明确设计的。但是是的，在某些方面，笨重而过时，所以我很期待。接下来会发生什么？
Tiago Forte 46:48
你对罗马或你使用的另一个或任何其他方面有什么建议吗？软件制造商有没有任何系统的盲点或他们错过的东西，你会建议很好地包括在内，嗯。
Sönke Ahrens 47:05
我想我会等到我回答这个问题，我完全相信的那一刻。错误有很多值得喜欢的地方。但是我还没有下定决心，但是现在我已经下定决心了，我会的。更改了我网站上的推荐，我会发送一封邮件，所以如果你注册了我的时事通讯，这是。也许一年一次。我真的没有兴趣。发送了太多的东西，我不认为这有什么帮助，但是。这将是我要宣布的事情，因为我认为这很重要，但我现在不能做出结论性声明。
Tiago Forte 48:06
好的，我们有了？我的下一批课程从4月6日开始，我们将有我之前没有宣布过，但我们不会有埃利亚松？他是顽固的罗马倡导者，也是罗马在线课程的创建者。他将来参加一个关于如何使用罗马的客座研讨会，特别是如何将我的想法和我在该软件上教的一些东西联系起来，所以如果你有兴趣参加，我很乐意送你。
Sönke Ahrens 48:34
这个链接。净网前。
Tiago Forte 48:37
纳特·埃利亚松。
Sönke Ahrens 48:39
是的，是的，嗯，我没有和他联系。如果我被说服了，也许我们可以一起做点什么。
Tiago Forte 48:48
酷哦好完美。是的，这是一个紧密相连的网络笔记世界。讽刺的是，或者说足够恰当。
Sönke Ahrens 48:58
我是说那是。真正的下一步是如何协作，而不仅仅是拥有独立的笔记，而是。更多地考虑他们，更多地考虑相互联系的协作，我认为这将是下一步。好的，完美。
Tiago Forte 49:20
浏览这里的聊天继续并放弃你有的任何其他问题。有人有一个问题，我不记得书中提到过这个问题，但是你能评论一下你应该对一个来源做足够的笔记，这样你就再也不用读了。他这个人说是尼摩船长说的，嗯，卢曼说了这句话，但他担心这会减慢他记太多笔记的速度。
Sönke Ahrens 49:53
是的。我是说Lumen明确地说他从来没有在这里重温过这本书，但这并不一定是因为他期望那本书里的所有信息。因为他非常挑剔，然后继续前进。我认为这可能值得解决，因为这是尝试的另一个陷阱。让这个系统把结构强加给自己，系统应该服务于你的工作，帮助你。不应该给你施加压力，让你做大量的笔记。所以我认为作为一个专业读者并不意味着一定要拥有。记笔记的质量水平意味着能够调整你对文本的时间和注意力的量？处理这个和那个有时意味着阅读标题和放弃。它消失了，有时这意味着需要几周的时间来经历这一切，安里。
Sönke Ahrens 51:20
表达它，能够调整注意力和速度，这才是真正的意义所在，所以我。有时根本不做笔记。有时我会跳过重新措辞的部分，因为我不需要它，有时我知道它在手稿中的确切位置。我把它写在一张小纸上。我通常有你知道5，我有一个木箱，我收集？因为我喜欢文学，尼尔森。那是笔和纸，但有时我有一个很大的工作表。一个只写一篇文章的人有很多笔记，因为它信息更丰富，它是关于调整的，而不是让它完美。如果你觉得喜欢。你在浪费时间，那么也许你不应该在这一步投入更多的工作，但是想想。在那里你可以继续前进。
Tiago Forte 52:42
是的，我不能，我不能，我想强调这一点，所以改编。我认为这是系统处方的最大陷阱。你把所有的代理都外包给系统，但当它真正是关于适应的时候？进化是有趣的电子邮件之一，我收到的是有人上我的课程或他们阅读的邮件。我所有的文章，然后他们给我写信，这封非常抱歉的电子邮件，他们喜欢，很抱歉我讨厌这样做，但是。我不能完全按照描述的那样使用你的系统，然后他们写道，你知道所有这些细节，关于他们为什么和如何真正思考这个问题，我回信说你。你拿到了。当你知道得足够多，并且对你的思维方式足够自信时，你就掌握了它。你可以反驳我，你有充分的理由这样做，你不需要道歉，这实际上是学习的巅峰，你不再需要向像我这样的人寻求答案。我认为这是一个非常深刻的想法。好的。还有一件事。当然应该。
Tiago Forte 53:52
我知道我是，我想我们要继续结束了。我想问你要确保按时结束。我想问你人们在哪里可以找到你，或者你会把他们送到哪里，如果他们还能做些什么来了解更多关于你和你的工作的信息，他们如何仍然订阅你的电子邮件列表。
Sönke Ahrens 54:11
嗯。我提到了时事通讯，你会在网站上找到它，记下智能笔记。有一天我需要重新启动它，但是。这可能是我真正关注静力学稍后出现的内容之一。当我有更多的时间进行指导和咨询时，我肯定会重新启动，并且会更明确，但我可以提供。安。我可以通过邮件列表随时向您更新。那是。事情和最好的方式保持联系OK完美。
Tiago Forte 55:06
Zonkey。我想谢谢你。我想去。谢谢你花时间写这本书，并把所有这些想法具体化。形式上，这真的是一个巨大的灵感，也是来这里回答问题的时候了。我知道你很忙，我很感激你愿意。花时间和我们在一起也要感谢大家的到来。我知道现在世界上发生了很多事情，笔记是你可能正在学习的事情之一。但是我真的很感激你们都能现场直播，让这成为一个更多的。协作练习。
Sönke Ahrens 55:43
谢谢你邀请我，谢谢大家的信任。
Tiago Forte 55:49
谢谢大家，我有一个录音给你们所有人，可能很快就会把这个放在YouTube驴子同意，否则你的一周会有一个美好的结局。大家再见。
2022-11-10 16:05:33 CST|56m 4s
Keywords:
more notes、more question、more thing、many notes、old notes、extensive notes、literature notes、few questions、more time、sufficient notes、standalone notes、note sequence、disorganized notes、general note、particular note、obscur note、note taking、proper note
Transcript:
Tiago Forte 00:00
But I wanted to welcome you all to this interview and Q&A. With the author hopefully with the author of how to take smart. Notes are really incredible book on note, taking and really much more learning.
Tiago Forte 00:13
Productivity personal growth project management that I've had the pleasure of kind of being deeply immersed in the past few months. We're going to take an hour. I have a hard stop with the call in the next hour or so. We're going to ask funky assuming he shows up a few questions actually quite a number of questions that you've all sent in which I have in front of me here really, really excellent questions. Um this sort of impetus for this call was an article that I wrote summarizing the book. If someone has the link to that and could drop it. In the chat. I'd appreciate it, there, we go? I see you song key. I'll unmute you here welcome I'm just doing a short introduction.
Sönke Ahrens 01:06
Ok, now I should be unmuted.
Tiago Forte 01:08
Ok great and by the way. How do you pronounce your name is it is a sulky zamku? Oh wow OK zonca OK? Is that better.
Sönke Ahrens 01:18
That sounds great.
Tiago Forte 01:19
Ok perfect? I have AI have an unusual name for English speakers as well so I empathize. But yeah, so a few a few orientation. Notes here as we get started first is the chat if you click the chat button in the toolbar your zoom toolbar. You'll notice a window pop up on the side. We actually encourage a backchannel on these calls. You can drop in comments there questions links to other resources that we mentioned or even though we don't mention I encourage you to introduce yourself. There's some really, really fascinating people on this call so definitely have the chat transcript active and. I'll share that chat transcript minus any private messages so don't feel like you have to write down any links or references or book titles. I will share all of that with you, you can just listen. And the second thing is, we actually really encourage you to turn on your camera turn on your webcam if you have one and if you can.
Tiago Forte 02:16
It's really helpful for both of us to kind of see the variety of people we have see your faces see their reactions. Whether it's excitement or boredom. In response to what we're saying we can kind of respond in real time that's the benefit of these live.
Tiago Forte 02:31
And it's the reason we do, though. I see we have people from all over the world, not even going to try to read out the names. We had over a thousand people registered for this call which is pretty incredible really, really cool. So. Let's get started here is OK. I wonder if you could give us your your stock. What do you do like? How do you describe your work I know you have your hand in various things but if you could kind of tell us a little bit about the work you do in your background.
Sönke Ahrens 03:06
First of all thank you for having me and I'm excited about the interest. You know that's really great Anne. I'm working at the University and Essen in Germany at the moment and my main field is. Philosophy of Education I worked on philosophy of science as well so that is what I've written is a little bit informed by that, so I'm interested in thinking outside the brain and. An I'm more interested in how to use tools. For building up complex ideas. I know I put an emphasis on the book on being very productive and writing a lot, but I think. My main interest is really and how to think better and. Yeah, that's what I think about most of the time.
Tiago Forte 04:06
Ok, excellent and could you say a bit about your coaching a few people were curious what your coaching is like whether they can be coached by You is that something that is.
Sönke Ahrens 04:17
Yeah, yeah, it's not my main. Field at the moment, so I have little time for that in there, only a few slots and an I my background is in systems. Happy so I do counseling, but online coaching at the moment more or less exclusively on the total cost and but in the future if I'm less. I'm busy with teaching at the University. I'm certainly will do a relaunch of my website and then offer a little bit more background information on that. So if you subscribe to my mailing list. I will keep you updated on things like this.
Tiago Forte 05:08
Ok, if someone wouldn't mind grabbing the link to his uncle's website and sticking it in the chat or is like if you have it available. I'd appreciate that. This is a collaborative exercise that where we all we all contribute as you can see OK. It's very interesting. So let's see I want to add a couple questions. I want to ask a couple of questions right here at the beginning what? Tell us a little bit about it, so we know a little bit about your background how about the background of this book among all the things your doing what? What led you to think, to to think this was really important, and necessary and what was the what was the story that led to its creation. Right well.
Sönke Ahrens 05:48
It's partly a procrastination project so I was working on. My next book, which is still in the making and I struggled with finding the right tools and. In a way it's ironic because I worked on the theory of Nicholas Lumen for quite awhile and. I never took his practical work with settle Kirsten that serious an that is, until I really discovered that his certain way of. Thinking and being much more serious about thinking outside the brain and decentralizing the mind and trying to. Use technology and tools to improve the level of complexity that this is something that is really interconnected with the theory itself.
Sönke Ahrens 06:59
And, of course I tinkered around with different ways of writing taking notes and my hope is that. I can spare people a lot of these mistakes I made and. To hopefully. Encourage people to take more notes. Because just taking more notes makes a huge difference, I do think that. A certain level of? And challenging yourself and your ideas, we require some kind of external brain and. That is something I thought a lot in my teaching because teaching is still not about OK how how can you challenge assumptions? How can you challenge students? How can you tell yourself an? You don't always have someone around who challenges you and taking notes can help you a lot with. Especially.
Sönke Ahrens 08:23
Going against confirmation bias. I'm it, it reminds you of what you're actually thinking and it forces you to make it more explicit so my main? Ann hope was to provide people with improved system that can improve thinking and helps.
Sönke Ahrens 08:53
2. To make things easier along the way because? A lot of the struggles. I had in my early days of writing is just finding things again and. Remembering. How I thought about something and only when you can compare notes you can really see a difference because your brain always adjusts to your current state of. Thinking so that was the main idea and. I also hoped to spark some.
Sönke Ahrens 09:43
Discussion on how we organize higher education because I think that higher education is still very much stream blind. Along old ideas of. You have to have a plan in hand, you have to come up with an hypothesis first and then you do the work and this is a certain way of thinking about thinking that I. Believes is just plain wrong and. Technology can help with implementing a more open ended process that is more open to change an. And so if technology can help in that way too. Does mark a discussion about how to maybe changed various things in higher education that that would be great? When I side effect, Yeah.
Tiago Forte 10:48
Gosh, I couldn't agree more. Amen to that? Yes. Do you teach the zettelkasten system in your classes do you train you? Students in them or do they kind of have to discover it outside of class? So um.
Sönke Ahrens 11:08
I know one of the questions you sent me earlier that one of your view vehicles. Asked was well how do you convince students to use this system or to write more nails and? That's a tough one because the students are really no. The value of proper note, taking system are usually those who are in their final exams and have the challenge of writing the thesis and wish they had started earlier. The students who just starts so for those who would it would be the best thing to to use and usually have this mentality from school.
Sönke Ahrens 12:02
Where you get some kind of packages and just take boxes and don't really grasp the? Importance of note taking and if you as a professor tell them that's really important. They usually think well, I'm not going to 2. The Professor and write books, so maybe that's a little bit, too much so my solution is.
Sönke Ahrens 12:35
Spring older and young students together and let older Stevens explained the importance of helping students because they are much more believable and they know the struggles that come later in the day. Can explain to those who just start well it really is an advantage. If you start early and if you adjust the system along the way it's not so important to have a perfect system. Just write and write a lot and so some of the tutors just great in doing that, so these are. The ways of convincing students to take more notes.
Tiago Forte 13:23
Yeah, I like it. I like it. I remind you that exercise in with investing where if you make people hunch over. And shuffle and sort of act like their old or feel what it's like to be old then suddenly, they want to invest more. They want to save more, they want to put money into their retirement accounts. It's like you're linking their present in their future self. And that changes behavior?
Tiago Forte 13:47
I liked it alot, OK as you so, so you mentioned you. You went from from Nicholas lumens. Output is content. Work, too, is practical system as you did that what surprised you. As you really researched and got into the details of this metal casting was there anything that really kind of surprised you in that.
Sönke Ahrens 14:12
Well. I'm not sure if there are many surprises. It's it's more that I'm still pretty much in or about the kind of output and. Then. Yeah, II mean there are theoretically questions. I'm I'm still interested in how the technology you use shapes your thinking? And the kind of theory, you can develop from there. Ann. But I think the main surprises that are many surprises. It's pretty much really the way it's described and. There is no hidden secret, so that's maybe the main surprise.
Tiago Forte 15:05
Yeah, I notice in so many of the questions it was like you know, such detailed questions about the very specific steps exactly how you do them and it's kind of like it feels like people trying to reverse engineer you know a potion. This magical potion if they could just get the proportions just right. I will yes.
Sönke Ahrens 15:29
An well II know the. There is a lack of step by step descriptions and. I fully understand that this is a neat and I will certainly provide something like that. And now the important part as soon as I'm fully convinced about a software that is lasting that is fully developed where I can wholeheartedly. Recommend to use it because you can only do a step by step description.
Sönke Ahrens 16:11
When you have made a decision on the technology use or the software you use an? I mean, you don't need a step by step description. More than which is available when you write with pen and paper because the steps are there and there aren't too many? Am having said that I think there could be a misunderstanding about trying to follow a step by step process because first of all you need to adjust it to your own needs. And the book is not only read by. Academics in the social Sciences, but many are interested to work in very different fields and you need to adjust to that and my main recommendation at the moment with this. Software as it is is. Well stick with the things you're most comfortable with and. Don't try to set up a whole new system because you might end switching systems again and again and the switching cost there so. It might make sense to stick with you have and see what really works for you and where you put the emphasis really depends on your kind of work so academics certainly have much more emphasis.
Sönke Ahrens 17:42
On. The reference system and. The literature notes that's not hugely important when you develop ideas about your business. So I would put there are much more emphasis on your project. How old is India project notes? Nb. Ok, with a hierarchy hierarchy is no problem. It just shouldn't be hard wired into the system. But you can. And be much more hierarchical with topics and subtopics when you have a clear idea about what your projects are and that is certainly true for many who are more business oriented or? Have a clear. Idea about the content they want to use so you need to adjust it a bit and that's why I think it. At least it was important in the beginning. To really explain the principles and ideas behind the system and make clear where it is different to the usual ways of.
Sönke Ahrens 19:05
Writing and note taking so the moment. You understand the principles. You are in a very good position to build something that is your own and works. Are you? I think that works much better than trying to copy your style? That is maybe not really your field.
Tiago Forte 19:33
Couldn't agree more so much of what you just said parallels my experience I mean, I just I went into our. Our on boarding survey, I think yesterday or the day before for our students and I looked at the question, which note taking app do you use an there was probably 3 dozen there's probably about 3 dozen different note taking apps? And so our approach has been to just sort of use the mall and 2 to do sort of a brain like a mind meld brainstorm we bring everyone together on the zoom calls just like this and we share notes. You know, I like what you said about the technology does influence the way you're thinking I found that to where someone will come up with a brilliant idea because they're using some obscur note, taking app that has some feature that few others do. That will then give them an insight, which they can then bring back to us and we can apply to our own systems. So so it is a bit of a challenge, but I'm hoping the diversity of systems and the diversity of different kinds of technology can be a could be a strength instead of a hindrance.
Sönke Ahrens 20:36
I'm. I do think that you're right that there isn't great independence of the system. Towards the apps. You use but at the same time, I do think the technology use of the software years? Makes a difference and maybe a major one. But. At the moment I. I calmed recommend one specific that works for at least not for all the clients. I talked to. I think the software doesn't make you can make a huge difference and. So II also hope that the ongoing discussions and that there is a lot going on and development will have something bubble up that. Yeah, that combines a lot of the advantages of different tools and is less an archive. Most of the things at the moment are really, for collectors. Not so much for thinking development. It makes a huge difference if you have a low threshold of writing where you don't get distr. Stood by the software so I'm really into everything with a low threshold, and simplicity and. Where things don't get overboard about all the possible fine tuning and adjustments absolutely see what's what will bubble up.
Tiago Forte 22:24
It's an exciting time, so just in time for the for this field. I want to ask you one more question. But then I want to get to 2 questions from others. I will so just one last thing on the steps. I'll put in the chat this Google Doc that I sent you some key, as well, which I didn't include in my original article. cause my article is more about the principles but I think I'll add this as a as an addendum to the bottom. It's basically a summary of the 8 steps. So you outlined in the book for using those little cast and if you want to refer to that or or if someone else does. That's fine, but but um. Let's let's move on to other questions for for example, the last one. I want to ask you which is. What do people get wrong about this system? What are the things that you notice they commonly misunderstand misinterpret's don't really get?
Tiago Forte 23:22
I think. Ann.
Sönke Ahrens 23:26
I'm not sure if that, really fits the question. But what are often see which is which was really not my intention is that people are really hard on themselves? Of not having a perfect system and my intention is to provide something that helps you too. Simplify things and make things easier and make it easier to stop when things difficult and. And now I often see the search for a perfect system, without struggle and it's almost like people now punishing themselves for that things are not that easy. And so I would like to emphasize that. Writing is still difficult and of course, there are always struggles with the organization and the question of where do I? Connect this idea to another, but that is all part of the system and. In some ways, so there's a feedback loop so in the beginning. I tended to make much too. Extensive nodes, but you realize quickly that you then don't really know. How to address this particular note so you adjusted a bit and then the next one is maybe a bit too short and so we adjusted again and. All this is not necessarily a sign that you're doing something wrong. It's just still learning curve. And I think it's important to embrace the difficulties in writing note taking understanding and. Going through difficult tax and trying to rephrase it in your own words. It's that's a challenge, but they solve the challenges worse focusing on and not getting distracted?
Tiago Forte 25:37
That's 1 of my favorite uses of these systems. If you don't know how your note, taking system should be take notes on that right on that collect ideas on that. It's like this. This recursive process where you can just keep going into whatever is challenging you even if it's the system itself.
Tiago Forte 25:55
I found that to be a very productive use of my notes. Let's see here OK. So I have you all sent many great questions. I'm going to sort of steer away from the more technology related ones? Because I can get into the real fine grained details of implementations and features and all these things also going to be meeting you all here. Could you provide a way to sort of some guidance on getting started for someone who has not done anything like this? Maybe they've taken some notes very ad hoc very randomly here and there. But beyond those 8 steps that you outline what would be some of the setup for the initial things that you would recommend people do.
Sönke Ahrens 26:44
Yeah, I think. What you shouldn't do is trying to move all your notes into the system and spend time on that. It's more about. Doing it differently. And if you take old notes and integrated in the new system that's great. But just do it when you want to use them anyway. And if you feel well in the beginning, there is.
Sönke Ahrens 27:19
2 little possibility to connect notes then try to make explicit what you already know because you never start from scratch never start from a blank page. And it can really make a difference just trying to make explicit what's already on on your mind and that gives you a little bit of structure. Which helps you to start and? Maybe just start with the projects you have and. Not having the.
Sönke Ahrens 28:00
Well. Not everything has to bubble up from bottom. You can just start with your project with the ideas you already have and. Start with a hierarchy so aluminum set custom.
Sönke Ahrens 28:18
Then he started with topics as he was a main areas of interest. Of course from there, it developed in different ways and. The topics became less and less important, but it can be a starting point. Just don't Hardwire. The hierarchy into your system so maybe that's 1 more general note. About how to start yeah. I want.
Tiago Forte 28:46
To. I want to agree in highlight with 2 things you said the first is not doing massive all encompassing migrations right. In my own in my own teaching and coaching. I used to. I used to do that. I used to either sit with people in person or over calls or over weeks and guide them through these migrations and it would inevitably take of course. Just incredible amounts of time, but then also get really caught up in little details of formatting and things that didn't that weren't able to be translated over and the architecture and all these things.
Tiago Forte 29:20
Ii now teach something that I called the digital Jubilee, which is this idea that that once a year is what I recommend if you have a bunch of disorganized notes piled up, that you just file them away. In an archive put a date on it, so you can find them. If you really need them, but essentially start over. You know, not take the bag that the organizational ordus organizational baggage from the past into the future to just to just kind of leave it behind.
Tiago Forte 29:47
But then also what you said about not always needing to start from the bottom up. I used to. When I was would write a blog post. My first step would be to just go through hundreds and hundreds of notes and and collect material. But the problem is when if my criteria was only what is interesting? Well, everything in my note taking system is interesting that's why I saved it. So I would start off the first step of my writing my blog Post with just like. Dozens of pages of notes and then have to spend so much time calling calling calling calling to get down, and now I do more kind of what you suggested which is I start with? What do I know is the main idea? Which is always something more intuitive is something that comes instantly to mind. And then I can go through my notes with that much, tighter filter of what do I need? What is just a senchal for me to support that point so I found something similar.
Sönke Ahrens 30:39
And looking for? Problems that that helps too because of course I mean, a lot of things are interesting. But when you start thinking about what could be your own contribution or what? Is the problem in this area it gives you some kind of focus it doesn't need to be necessarily formulated question. But. Try to. Put a finger on what bothers you what is maybe the problem here and looking for answers to to that that can be extreme? Is an extremely good filter?
Tiago Forte 31:26
Absolutely absolutely could you talk a little bit about the principle that by far people have had the most questions on or confusion about was the one to file by context, not by subject. One person said how do you know what the first of all? What is a context? How do I know what my Contacts are and second? How do you know what your Contacts are if as you say elsewhere I you don't know what you're going to be working on in the future? How can you decide? When you'll want to see this thing again.
Sönke Ahrens 31:59
Sure, so. Contacts and topics are not necessarily mutually exclusive of course in notes put in specific contexts can also be a contribution to a specific topic. Am what I wanted to stress here is the difference to a collection if you think about under what kind of topic do, I file this? Ann this is thinking like a collector when you ask yourself to which kind of discussion within which note sequence can this idea contribute.
Sönke Ahrens 32:39
He much more dive into the actual content. You think about what difference this new information makes for your previous health beliefs for example. And information can only make a difference in regards to something adding something to a collection make. Of course, also different but also the difference in terms of in additional information. So context is much more on the content level topic is. Almost always more about thinking about it and when he looked for context. You want to think. Within something so you're thinking more about the difference than you information makes for what you've written before so you. You look at the content level. You're not looking at keywords, you're not looking at the index. You're thinking well is. It just an addition or is it a contradiction is messing with my previous helper lead for. This is, do I have to change what I thought before and trying to make that explicit so it's about really getting as quickly as possible. Into the content and not trying to think from a level above where you just sort stuff. This is the probably the Main.
Sönke Ahrens 34:23
Pitfall when it comes to collecting notes and also means sorry that you might want to write the nodes. Already in dialogue with pre existing nodes, so really treating your system as a dialogue partner and answering. To the nodes you're connecting the new one with which is very different to just collecting.
Tiago Forte 34:58
Absolutely absolutely so it seems like the context is is along the same thread as the topic. But a few steps a couple steps further down right. You think of the cycle the second order effect do you think of the consequences you think of the usage of it? Why do you think that's so hard? Why do people? Find the challenger? Why is it not natural for them to do that extra bit of thinking on that.
Sönke Ahrens 35:23
Well, I think it's natural to treat any kind of software where you collect ideas as a kind of collection in the beginning and.
Sönke Ahrens 35:41
I'm not sure if it's really hard, so necessarily I think it's just thinking differently because we like to collect stuff and we like to. And feel there's more and more and more and it. Seems maybe less productive. She. Calls and things. How I might have been wrong before? New information and so.
Sönke Ahrens 36:19
I mean that that that is what interests me really. I'm not so interested in having a great output and. Just reshuffling information into new blog posts or something like that. But I'm interested in how do I discover wine wrong? We had can I? Transform if you want to previous health believes and that means spending quite a lot of time, rethinking stuff. You've already written down so maybe. That's the part which is probably a little bit less natural.
Tiago Forte 36:59
Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's very interesting. I'm I'm finding something similar. Where is something I've noticed working with people? Is people tend to read what they know already? Productivity people tenery productivity books, you know, uh engineering. People read engineering books literature. People read literature books. I had this experience going on my wife's on my wife's Facebook feed. And it was all reinforcing messages I think you can really only see it when you go on someone elses filter bubble because your own feels completely normal and natural and I just realized and then I looked on her Kindle. I was, I was just browsing through her device kind of snooping. And I looked at her Kindle. It was all books on the 3 or 4 or 5 subjects that she most likes and then I went back to my Kindle and it was exactly the same style books on exactly the topics that I already know and II feel like I've moved more towards if I'm reading a book and assessment thing. I know or agree with what's the point of highlighting it. You know if I can or if it's already part of my mental model. I can already extrapolate. It then I just don't even keep it at all only if it if it shocks me. Surprises me violates my expectations in some way even if I don't understand why.
Tiago Forte 38:10
Then it's more more. I find myself moving that direction because it's like. I want to break them. In some model that's learning. I want to find the best attack vectors into my existing mental model.
Sönke Ahrens 38:23
Yeah, and I think that's probably the challenge of the time at the moment because it's not that easy and that you can say, well, just be open minded if you're open minded your open main yourself up to a lot of bullshit. You don't want that you have to close yourself down, but at the same time you don't want to just repeat what you already know so it's not either being open or being close minded it's. About how do you deal with being selective in a way that still challenges you? That's tricky even to write about that. Not. Yeah, it's a challenge, but. It's an interesting one.
Tiago Forte 39:17
Yeah, the question I would like to ask myself when II. Find myself wanting one of these positions? Is is do I want to be right or do I want to be effective? cause often I find myself I have such a such a desire to be right. All the time specially in interpersonal situations and then I asked myself OK? Do you want to be right in this situation or do you want to be effective and I usually go? I want to be? Active Dang it. I wanted to ask you about spaced repetition had a couple of questions about that. So I have kind of a beef with spaced repetition. I kind of feel like space repetition is the is the opposite of the external brain idea. It's like the external brain you're trying to offload from the human brain to the external brain. With spaced repetition in different memorization techniques are trying to get it from the external world onto your brain. What's here? Do you spaced repetition and or any memorization techniques and what's what's your take on that.
Sönke Ahrens 40:13
I don't use any memorization technique because II don't need to memorize anything I. I don't know in which situation I need to memorize. I mean, I know. Some professions have the neat if your nectar. You need to rehearse your lines and you need to memorize them. But. Almost always the need for memorization is incomplete artificial settings within education and. In almost all cases, you can ask yourself. If you have trouble with Memorization Maybe. Try to understand it a little bit better and have more examples have more connections to other ideas to elaborate a little bit further on it. Because if you have fully elaborated on something you usually don't need to memorize it. So I'm not really interested in Memorization, having said that. I like to. I like the feeling of having things on my mind, instead of feeling forgetful and I do think that. When you have a system in place where you force yourself to.
Sönke Ahrens 41:43
Revisit on a regular basis, old notes that's a kind of built in. Reputation or space repetition. But I wouldn't say that's an explicit memorization technique. But I do think that's this principle. That's at work here and as far as I'm. I know it's. Empirically. Quite a solid technique.
Tiago Forte 42:21
Absolutely you mentioned before that there were there were some theoretical questions that you're still pondering one of them was how the technology influences the way you think are there any are there any current or other open questions that you can share with us or? I'm curious what the what is the frontier of your own learning in regards to this stuff?
Sönke Ahrens 42:42
Well, one question that it's on top of my mind is what I mentioned earlier how to be open minded without getting too distracted and how to? Anne find well not a balance because balance is usually not a good idea but. Yet how to work against your biases and.
Sönke Ahrens 43:14
Well. Dealing with. Partisanship and the filter bubbles. We encounter and if there are any. Education can help with solving that problem. Yeah, that that's 1 of the things that are more or less on top of my mind. In the earlier days. It was more how to get inside so. How what kind of environment? Do we need to make inside more likely? To change our mind in a very fundamental way, not just a superficial way. But in a very fundamental way, so I. Studied a lot of history of Science and so the externalization of ideas and thinking outside the box but.
Sönke Ahrens 44:25
Within. The next ternal brain or within a laboratory and the difference between thinking with something and thinking within something. That is something I would like to elaborate a little bit more on.
Tiago Forte 44:46
Excellent excellent me, too me, too, so I've covered most of the questions that were sent in previously. There's some I think that are not completely appropriate for this call but let's go to the chat. I haven't been able to keep up with the many, many messages but go ahead and. But in the chats anything that you'd like some kid to to touch on.
Sönke Ahrens 45:08
Well, I've seen quite a lot of questions about software and apps and technologies and I mentioned earlier. I don't wanna dive into that because I think other. People have much better overview over what is available.
