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评论补充 (玛吉斯)

2021-07-17 21:51 作者:acnq  | 我要投稿

(因为主线人物的杂谈引起了更多的讨论,视频的评论区也会越来越热闹,而且主线人物的复杂性也会使Razielim的视频显得有些不完整,所以我也会顺便搬运一些有价值的评论作为补充)

(玛吉斯的评论非常丰富,这里仅仅收录了一些对剧情分析有启发性的进行汉化,文本稍多,但看到最后有惊喜)


原视频:

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Zv411J7BL


我明白阿莉娜失去了她的道德和耐心,但是似乎灯花和音梦失去她们的道德和耐心的情况没有解释清楚

especially Nemu because (Spoiler if u haven't read her personal story) she literally watches a member of magius get killed in a witch labyrinth

尤其是音梦(来自她个人剧情的剧透)她字面上得看到了玛吉斯的一个成员在魔女结界中被杀【个人剧情第二话】

——by Red Magnus My housewife




        actually I make the point in the video that Touka loses her morals and patience 

        事实上我在视频里说到了灯花失去道德和耐心这一点

        because she grows frustrated and angry when problems arise and she immediately        allows those emotions to make her make terrible decisions 

        其原因是她因为面对问题时产生的挫折和愤怒,而且她立刻使得这些情绪让她做出可怕的决定

        and to be completely honest, I dont think Touka ever had good morals at all, 

        而且,如果让我完全诚实的说,我并不认为灯花有任何好的道德可言

        at most she has a selection of a handful of people she cares about but toward any stranger she ranges from indifferent to hostile

        最多只有一个小圈子的人是她关心的,至于那些陌生人,她的态度从冷漠到不友好之间不等

                ——by Razielim




        Touka is completely understandable to have 0 morals towards people outside her personal circle. 

        说灯花对于她的朋友圈之外的人没有道德是可以理解的

        I'm not saying she is right to do so, but we can see where her selfishness comes from. 

        我不是说她这么做是对的,但是我们可以看看她的这种自利的心态来源于何处

        But i totally miss where Nemu lost her morality as well. 

        但我完全错过了音梦失去道德的时间点

        I always saw Nemu as the less destructive of the 3 Magius, and thought that her morality could prevent the other 2 sociopaths from going ham on Kamihama,

        我一直把音梦看做玛吉斯三人组最不具破坏性的那个,而且我认为她的道德可以阻止另外反社会人格障碍者破坏神滨

        but i guess i understood her wrong or the writers forgot about that. Anyway, Nemu best Magius

        现在看来我可能理解错了,或者作者忘记了这些,无论如何,音梦是最好的玛吉斯

                ——by Matheus Souza



          @Matheus Souza   I always saw Touka and Alina as egotistical and arrogant while Nemu seemed to be emotionally detached from everyone except a select few,

        @前一个评论者 我一直把灯花、阿莉娜看做自我本位的,傲慢的人,而音梦似乎情感上和大多数人处于脱钩的状态,除了少数她在意的

          to me she, alongside Mifuyu, was a counterweight for the other two but not due    any particular feeling of empathy IMO, 

        对我来说,她和美冬,她们是另外两个人的制衡,不过她这不是对谁有同情,

        she as the coldest and most calculating of the three probably kept the other two centered on the mission in moments when anger and frustration was about to make them act rashly; 

        她可能是三人组中最冷峻最算计的,让其他两个人在因为愤怒和挫败而可能偏向乱来时,使她们重新将精神集中到目标上

        while a lot credit for the organization goes to Mifuyu without Nemu's authority I think we would had seen a much more violent, less pacient and less effective Wings of Magius.

        虽然组织的信誉基本上靠美冬维持,但是如果没有音梦的威信,我感觉我们会看到一个更加暴力,更没耐心,更没效率的玛吉斯羽翼组织

——by Sealdeam




        My interpretation is that Touka was never the nicest person, 

        我的理解是灯花从来不是最善良的人,

        and to a lesser extent neither was Nemu, 

        某种较好的程度上来说,音梦也不是,

        but being with Ui helped temper their actions and teach them to consider the feelings of others before acting. 

        但是和忧在一起,忧缓和了她们的行动并且教会了她们在行动之前考虑他人的感受

        With Ui gone, so was that teaching, causing them to revert to how they would have acted. 

        忧没了之后,那些教导也没有了,使得她们转变为了她们本会成为的那样

        Now they were spending most of their time with Alina, who wasn't the best role model and instead supported their more selfish side 

        而且她们现在和阿莉娜待在一起的时间最多,阿莉娜也不是最好的道德模范,相反她支持了她们更自私的一面

        causing an echo chamber where their more malicious ideas were reinforced over the alternative.

        这造成了一个回音室,她们各自更邪恶的一面通过对方不断的在此被加强

                ——by angeldude101




          @Raz Anime   Touka makes a lot of morally reprochable actions but I don't think that's enough to claim she has no good morals 

        @Raz Anime(即是作者Razielim,不同账号而已) 灯花做出了很多应受道德谴责的决定,但是我不认为这足以宣称她毫无道德

        when her wish and her original plan contradicts that statment by being completely selfless.

        因为她的许愿和她一开始的计划反驳了那些【她毫无道德的】指控,她在那些情况下完全是无私的

        The writting isn't the best, but I think her character and her actions are complex enough to not make such an absolute claim about her morality.

        写作确实不够好,但是我觉得她的角色和行动已经足够复杂,使得我们不能对于她的道德做出决绝的宣判

        Yeah, Touka is indifferent to hostile to people but she has an open way to win her over. 

        是的,灯花确乎对于普通人冷漠而不友好,但是她允许其他人让她改观

        There is a difference between having no kindness and having to earn that kindness. 

        毫无善意【慈悲】和需要挣得善意【慈悲】之间是有区别的

        For example, both, Ui and Touka have kindness within them, but while Ui gives it freely, with Touka you have to earn it.

        比如,忧和灯花都有善意的一面,但是忧无偿的将它展现给所有人,但对于灯花,你需要争取它

                ——DrBXXI



The Magius infuriate me because I want to side with them, 

玛吉斯激怒了我因为我其实想和她们合作的

but everything mentioned in this video has made it impossible for me to work with them.

但是她们在视频中被提及的各种行为使我不可能和她们合作

 In particular, I want to meet Touka personally and slap her across the face for being such an idiot. 

尤其是,我想直接和灯花见面并且赏她两个耳光,她是如此的白痴

You're so concerned about getting more energy faster to the point of being willing to kill people, 

她过于关注从其他人那里快速的获得能量,甚至不惜杀人

while forgetting that you yourselves are effectively walking perpetual motion machines capable of generating an infinite amount of energy over time.

但她忘记了她自己就是一个自走永动机,可以逐渐的产生无限量的能量

——by angeldude101


        Touka’s an arrogant 11-year old wealthy child prodigy whose exceptional intellect netted her tons of praise and inflated her ego 

        灯花是一个高傲的十一岁神童,她的与众不同的智力给了她数以吨级的赞誉并且膨胀了她的自我

        so she’s even less likely to question herself than an average 11-year old. 

        所以她比起一般的11岁小孩更加不会反思

        She also probably has a warped sense of the value of human life after growing up with a disease that was expected to kill her at a young age. 

        她也可能对于人的生命有一个歪曲的感知,因为她成长中即伴随着在可预见的未来,在她还年轻的时候就足以取她性命的疾病

        To put it bluntly, she’s super smart, but not wise at all. 

        直白的说,她很聪明,但和明智无缘

        Without Ui’s grounding influence, I’m not surprised she went way too far. 

        没有忧的稳定性的影响,我一点都不惊讶她能够走那么远【双关】

        That said, she’s still one of my favorite characters. 

        然而,她依旧是我最喜欢的角色之一【so do I】

        She had some really good logical takes on stuff like, say, the whole “soul-gem means I’m a zombie, wah!” thing. 

        她有很多独特的逻辑,比如“灵魂宝石意味着,我就是僵尸,哇哦!”

        I always got the sense that she has the potential to be a really, genuinely good person, 

        我经常感觉,她会有潜力变成一个非常的,真正的,出色的人,

        but ONLY if she’s surrounded by people who counter her callous impatient tendencies & guide her to think outside of her own perspective. 

        但仅在于她周围有那些人的情况下,那些和她的冷酷,没有耐心的倾向相反的,并且引导她跳出自我视域进行思考的人

        So basically, people like Ui and Iroha.

        所以这就是为什么,大家都喜欢忧和彩羽的原因。

                    ——by Virginia Connor



我想说的:

    主线第九章的评论区BV1Vb411z7HW大家对于玛吉斯的得失已经讨论的很多了,不过我觉得还有一些值得补充的,

    作者在思考玛吉斯的问题的时候没有从这样一个角度进行理解,之前魔法少女因为设定的问题,互相倾向于敌对而不是合作是正常的,甚至是注定的(——这还要感谢玛吉斯,她们的一系列计划使得神滨的魔法少女和魔女都实现了数量上的巨大增长,这使得神滨魔法少女的社会结构出现质变变得可能,而这恰恰是现代性的基础,否则好一点宛如隔壁的见泷原,差一点就是隔壁的二木市),玛吉斯的思维一开始就并不渴望通过常规的合作手段达到她们的目的,在她们的想法中,希望的是凭借强大的外部力量【从普通的谣言,再到螯合游乐园,最后夸张的到魔女之夜】一劳永逸的从根源上改变魔法少女的社会。

    大家都会说,玛吉斯三人组分别对应了二战的轴心国三巨头【灯花:德意志的阿道夫.H,阿莉娜:意大利的贝尼托.M,音梦:日本的昭和.皇】另一种声音是将玛吉斯比作某些误入歧途的革命者,我会觉得,,,格局小了,硬要把她们套到历史中的人物上会发现一些很明显的别扭之处【比如灯花和阿莉娜到底谁对应谁的问题】但是我觉得如果从宏观的视角上看就会略微开朗一点,主要从文化上而不是主要是政治上,不妨,把玛吉斯三人组看做人类社会“现代性”的三种要素

    这一点上灯花看上去就像维多利亚时代高傲的英国人【或者英国文化】,她/他们因为掌握了新的似乎是能让能源取之不尽的技术而自以为是救世主,自以为高人一等,她的哥特式服装和对永动机的痴迷似乎就是那种文化的一种写照,而她也如那个时代的人一样,高傲自以为是,认为拯救其他人是“白人的责任”。

    而音梦那套学院服则类似象征着典型知识分子型的欧陆人【大陆文化】,她/他们一方面保有对于周围人的同情和伦理热忱【雨果、高尔基】,另一方面她/他们也是积极的将她/他们的理念的积极的“具现化”为显示的社会制度【“谣”】,首先是自己的社会制度【芬特霍普酒店】,然后再是其他人的【从言灵神社开始】,本意都是美好,或者最多将伤害看做奋斗过程中的损失,越少越好,但是在后来的发展中越来越离谱,到最后首先是侵略他人,然后又是剥削自己人。

    至于A前辈,不用说代表了现代性中一种破坏性的力量,“艺术”,那种艺术不是古典派或者印象派的绘画——这反倒属于音梦——,而是更加狂热的,奥地利维也纳落榜艺术生的艺术,有意思的是,音梦的服装在腿部有一个脚链,而A前辈的魔法少女服装恰恰和狱警非常类似,这种意向的对应怕是一种很有意思的巧合。

    本来,病房三人组【一般病房三人组是指音梦、灯花和环忧,阿莉娜在隔壁而且住的不久不算,到玛吉斯三人组时才指阿莉娜、灯花、音梦】中因为有忧的良善撑着,灯花和音梦可以自然的向善,但是魔法少女的社会也因此不会有现代性【——圆神:“只有这个宇宙与众不同”】,然而,就在病房三人组的计划开展之时,象征良善的忧却过早的殉道了,并且更可怕的是,她/它被遗忘了,这么一来玛吉斯三人组就变成了纯粹的信息茧房,互相的回音让她们的计划越来越疯狂,于是她们看上去俗套的剧情发展反倒是我们的自己的历史,从牵扯到神滨的大家【殖民主义】到最后席卷全局的战争【世界大战】,其原因有一种可能就是三人组掌握了现代性的力量还想着然后以一种前现代,丛林魔法少女社会的方式进行斗争【“那些开航空母舰的,从船长到炮手一律长着十七十八世纪海盗们的脑袋”语出斯塔夫里阿诺斯】,这样一来,然后悲剧也便不难预料了,最后能够给出的,也仅有折中的反思【灯花和音梦受到了限制,而阿莉娜,,还是把一切都忘了好】

    当然,这样的比附依旧有一些牵强之处,比如本来三种现代性之间的冲突才应该是现代化的主题,然而主线中对于玛吉斯内部的动态还是显得比较单薄【而且世界大战本来应该是现代性内部冲突的高潮,而玛吉斯的终章战斗的对象却是外部的】,另外,如果就这样把握现代性,容易反倒会把现代性本身简化,最后还有,这么做结论,和魔纪游戏的第二部连不起来

    不过小圆系列的解读本来就是很多元的【类比《失乐园》的,《浮士德》的,从经典基督教神学,到异端炼金术和诺斯替学说的,还有将从“业力”和“轮回”中引出佛教三千世界概念的】本作一家之言,意本抛砖引玉。



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