Baudinette博士： 这是为了揭示杰尼性侵丑闻的同时，讨论对粉丝厌女式的反感，同时日本媒体正在尝试去分清什么应该被谴责，而什么不应该被谴责。（unpacking the sexual abuse scandal and discussing misogynistic backlash against fans as Japanese media attempt to make sense of who is, and is not, to blame)

B博士的朝日新闻采访被他自己翻译成了英文并全文免费公开了。gpt翻译+我检查模式搬运，长难句地狱，不保证完美通顺。翻译我采用中英交替对照，拿来做英语学习材料也不错。

原文（英）https://thomasbaudinette.com/2023/09/20/johnnys-problem/

之前我发过的一些和B博士相关的内容：

这是采访刚出我给的推荐。这是他上的公开课解说《偶像失格》

众所周知，日本男性偶像经纪公司杰尼斯近日被爆出，其创始人喜多川杰尼几十年来，连环性侵犯参与公司培养项目的未成年人。这不仅导致杰尼斯受到社会持续的反感，“杰尼斯性侵问题”也受到媒体强烈关注，还使公司CEO藤泽朱莉景子（喜多川杰尼的侄女）被迫辞职。

我受朝日新闻的邀请，从日本女性粉丝文化的研究者，和偶像产业专家的角度，分享对这一重大的丑闻的看法。如下，我将分享与记者森真弓（下简称M）的采访的英文翻译版，该采访于2023年9月14日发表在朝日新闻数字版上。此翻译并不严谨，并对一些陈述进行了改动，以贴合我目前的想法。

As many people are no doubt aware, Japanese male idol talent powerhouse has been rocked by the revelation that their founder, Johnny Kitagawa, had been serially sexually abusing minors in the company’s training program for decades. This has led not only to a sustained backlash against the company and intense media scrutiny of the “Johnnys Sex Abuse Problem,” but also led to the resignation of the company’s CEO Fujisawa Julie Keiko (Johnny Kitagawa’s niece).

I was invited by the Asahi Newspaper to share my thoughts on this broader scandal from my perspective as a scholar of Japanese female fandom culture and expert on the idol industries. Below, I share the translation of my interview with journalist Mori Mayumi, which was published in the Asahi Newspaper Digital Edition on 14th September, 2023. This translation is somewhat loose, with a few rephrases of some of the statements to better align with my current thinking.

朝日新闻标题：杰尼斯事件：粉丝有能力改善追星文化 - 澳大利亚研究员之所见

THE JOHNNYS PROBLEM: FANS CAN IMPROVE STAN CULTURE – THE PERSPECTIVE OF AN AUSTRALIAN RESEARCHER

杰尼斯所属未成年人大规模被性侵犯的爆料，给杰尼斯粉丝带来巨大冲击。虽然以前的报道已经揭示了媒体和社会为何忽视性侵问题这一重要问题，但也出现了一些批评偶像文化本身，或将责任推向女性粉丝的言论。追逐男性偶像比如杰尼斯，对女性意味着什么呢？而社会对粉丝文化又如何理解呢？杰尼斯的粉丝们应该如何走向未来呢？我们向熟悉东亚偶像文化的，就职于澳大利亚麦考瑞大学的，日本与国际研究高级讲师托马斯·鲍丁内特提问。

Johnnys fandom has been shaken by the revelation of the large-scale sexual assault of minors at Johnny and Associates. While reporting has previously shed light on the important issue of why the media and society have overlooked this sexual harassment, some statements that criticize idol culture itself or shift the blame onto female fans have also appeared. What does the culture of celebrating male idols, such as Johnnys, mean to women, and how has the fandom been received by society? And what should Johnnys fans do moving forward? We asked Thomas Baudinette, Senior Lecturer in Japanese and International Studies at Australia’s Macquarie University, who is familiar with East Asian idol culture.

这只是“日本专属”的问题吗？

IS IT A JAPANESE PROBLEM?

M：您的研究方向是性别研究，但您自己多年来一直是东亚偶像的粉丝，包括杰尼斯。

T：当我在大学研究日本学时，一位朋友向我介绍了偶像团体w-inds，从那里我开始了解日本偶像。后来，在观看日本电视剧和综艺节目时，我知道了杰尼斯，从而成为了杰尼斯偶像的粉丝。我会去墨尔本的书店购买日本书籍，购买像《Myojo》和《POTATO》这样的偶像杂志。至于为什么我被日本偶像吸引，是因为西方明星对我来说就像抛光过的宝石，而日本偶像更像是未经雕琢的钻石，粉丝可以直接体验他们如何变得光彩夺目的过程。正是因为日本偶像在明星文化上的别具一格，我才被吸引。

M: Your research specialty is gender studies, but you yourself have been a fan of East Asian idols, including Johnnys, for many years.

T: When I was studying Japanese Studies at university, a friend introduced me to the idol group w-inds and I learned about Japanese idols. Later, while watching Japanese dramas and variety shows, I learned about Johnnys and that’s when I started to become an fan of Johnnys idols. I would go to bookstores in Melbourne that stocked Japanese books and buy idol magazines like Myojo and POTATO. Thinking about why I was drawn to Japanese idols, it was because Western celebrities appeared to me as akin to polished jewels, while Japanese idols seemed like diamonds in the rough where fans can directly experience the process of where they become polished. I was drawn to Japanese idols because of this difference in celebrity cultures.

M：作为杰尼斯的粉丝，您听说过喜多川涉及性侵的指控吗？

T：我第一次听说这些指控是在收集我博士论文的研究资料的时候，我的论文是探讨日本媒体文化中gay的表现形式。当时社交媒体还没有普及，所以除了指控本身，我对具体情况不太了解。我对现在曝光的性侵的性质和受害者人数感到震惊。

M: As a Johnnys fan, had you heard about the allegations of sexual abuse committed by Johnny Kitagawa?

T: I first learned about the allegations when I was in graduate school researching materials for my doctoral dissertation exploring representations of gay men in Japanese media culture. At that time, SNS were not yet widely developed, so I did not know the details beyond the simply allegations. I was shocked by the nature of the sexual assault that has now come to light and the huge number of victims.

M：您对于杰尼斯于9月7日举行的新闻发布会有何看法？

T：由于杰尼斯是一家私人家族经营的公司，我认为与性罪犯喜多川有血缘关系的藤岛朱莉·景子的辞职，有重要象征意义。几十年来，藤岛似乎无视了针对公司存在未成年被性侵犯的指控。即使藤岛真的不知道喜多川被指控的具体性侵犯行为，对于这几十年来的无视杰尼斯也有一定的罪责。

M: What did you think watching the press conference held by the agency on September 7th?

T: As Johnny and Associates is a private, family-run company, I felt it was important symbolically that Fujishima Julie Keiko – who is related to Johnny Kitagawa, the perpetrator of the abuse – resigned. For decades, it appears that Fujishima ignored accusations of sexual assault against minors leveraged at the company. Even if Fujishima truly had no real knowledge of the actual harm allegedly being perpetrated by Kitagawa, they possess a certain amount of culpability for ignoring the allegations over decades.

M：西方媒体是否关注杰尼斯性侵问题？

T：西方媒体对这一丑闻有两种主要观点。一种观点是，对未成年人的虐待代表了娱乐行业的系统性问题。近年来，一些强大且富有的男性，如美国的哈维·温斯坦和英国的吉米·萨维尔，被曝犯下了可怕的性侵犯行为。因此，这一种观点认为，应从全球背景来看待杰尼斯问题。

另一方面，许多西方媒体报道说，杰尼斯问题是一个日本专属的问题，充满了对日本的娱乐业和偶像文化的蔑视。这种观点试图创造一个叙事，"日本是一个纵容儿童色情的国家，拥有一种始终危险和有问题的变态偶像文化“。我认为这种观点坚持将问题归咎于日本文化，而使讨论偏离问题的本质。

M: Is the Johnny Sexual Abuse Problem receiving attention in the Western media?

T: Two main perspectives [on this scandal] are emerging in Western media. One perspective is that the abuse of minors represents a systemic problem in the entertainment industry. In recent years, it has come to light that powerful and wealthy men, such as America’s Harvey Weinstein and Britain’s Jimmy Savile, have committed horrific sexual abuse and assault. So a perspective has emerged that looks at the Johnnys problem from a global context. 

On the other hand, many Western media outlets are reporting that [what has occurred at Johnny and Associates] is a uniquely Japanese problem, adopting in a tone full of contempt for Japanese entertainment and idol culture. This perspective attempts to create a narrative of Japan as a nation of child pornography which possesses a perverted idol culture which is always already dangerous and problematic. I believe this perspective’s insistence on blaming this on Japanese culture shifts the discussion away from the actual essence of the problem.

批评粉丝的声音是厌女

VOICES WHICH CRITICIZE FANS ARE MISOGYNISTIC

M：日本娱乐产业是否具有独特的文化特征？

T：在日本的背景下，杰尼斯与广告公司和媒体制片人建立了强大的且具有强制性联系，使杰尼斯能够进行垄断业务，这是非常特别的。另一个重要特征是，国家对偶像产业的监管介入不足。这不仅适用于杰尼斯，还适用于女性偶像制作公司，如AKB48，当问题出现时，日本政府很少参与其中。

最近，联合国的专家访问了日本，并指出“日本政府有必要，带头确保调查偶像产业中的虐待的公开透明，并确保为受害者提供有效救济，包括道歉和经济赔偿。”尽管如此，我们还没有看到日本政府采取任何行动。如果这种情况继续下去，会显得政府在试图包庇这一产业。

M: Do the Japanese entertainment industries not possess any unique cultural elements?

T: What can be said to be distinctive to the Japanese context is how Johnny and Associates created a strong coercive relationships with advertising companies and media produces that allowed the agency to conduct exclusive business. Another important feature is the lack of state involvement in regulating the idol industry. This is true not only for Johnnys and Associates, but also for female idol production companies such as AKB48, with the Japanese government rarely getting involved when problems arise.

Recently, experts from the United Nations visited Japan and pointed out that “[i]t is necessary for the Japanese government to take the lead in ensuring a transparent investigation [of abuses in the idol industries] and ensuring effective relief for the victims, whether it is an apology or financial compensation.” Despite this, we have yet to see any action from the Japanese government. If this continues, it will look like the government is trying to protect the industry.

M：在韩国，公平贸易委员会于2009年引入了一个制度，以防止超长期合同，而此前一支人气团曾指责公司强迫他们签署所谓的“奴隶合同”。

T：说到韩国，有趣的是看到他们的粉丝文化与日本的文化有多么不同。许多日本粉丝认为，为了保护他们喜欢的偶像，他们必须同时保护偶像的公司。然而，韩国粉丝的立场经常是“保护偶像免受公司压迫”，这表达了他们对偶像经纪公司的强烈不满。这可能是因为韩国经历了殖民统治和独裁统治，形成了“需要发声反对权威”的强势文化。

M: In South Korea, the Fair Trade Commission introduced a system to prevent ultra-long-term contracts in 2009, after a popular group accused an agency of forcing them to sign so-called slave contracts.

T: Speaking of Korea, it’s interesting to see how different its fan culture is from Japan’s. Many Japanese fans think that in order to protect their favourite idols, they must also protect the idol’s company. Korean fans, however, often take the stance that they must “protect their idols from their agency,” expressing their strong opinions against idol management companies. This may be because South Korea, which has experienced colonial rule and dictatorship, has a strong culture of “needing to speak out against authority.”

M: 在日本，发现喜多川对未成年性侵后，批评偶像文化本身的声音变得更加强烈。

T: 我看到某位公知在社交媒体上评论了关于喜多川和杰尼斯的事情，他说：“杰尼斯是一个没有真正才华的假明星帝国。” 这个说法让我感到相当恼火。罪犯是喜多川，而杰尼斯偶像可能曾是他的受害者，但他们却成为了“他们之所以成为明星，是因为他们是喜多川的宠儿”等污名化的目标。这种观点的也势必伴随一些评论，比如 “粉丝审美差”，并且“他们毫无批判性思考地消费喂给他们的东西。” 随着新闻评论员开始批评杰尼斯，这种对粉丝的偏见也开始出现。

M: In Japan, after Johnny Kitagawa’s sexual abuse of minors was discovered, voices criticizing idol culture itself have become stronger.

T: I saw a certain public intellectual comment on SNS about Johnny and Associates, saying, “[i]t was a kingdom of fake stars (with no real talent).” That statement made me quite annoyed. The perpetrator was Johnny Kitagawa and Johnnys idols could have been his victims, but they have become targets of slander such as “[t]hey became stars because they were Johnny Kitagawa’s favourites.” The corollary of this view is that fans lack “good, aesthetic taste” and that “[t]hey consume what is given to them without criticism.” This kind of prejudice against fans is coming to the surface as commentators begin criticizing Johnny and Associates.

M：我们也看到一些声音质疑杰尼斯的粉丝是否也要负责。

T：大多数杰尼斯粉丝是女性。日本女性社会地位较低，她们的欲望经常不被认为是合理的，在此情况下，偶像文化成为了女性成为自己欲望主体的少数几个场所之一，具有重大意义。如果这些虐待事件发生在男性主导的娱乐文化中，是否会有人会责怪粉丝呢？当AKB48的一位偶像因丑闻而剃光头时，曾有人质疑过日本的偶像文化，但我几乎没有听到有人责怪粉丝。针对男性犯下的虐待行为，去责怪女性粉丝和女性主导的偶像文化，是厌女的表现。偶像粉丝不应对喜多川的行为负有责任。

另一方面，一些粉丝攻击性侵犯的受害者，比如主张“喜多川被强行出柜了”。这个观点是错误的。我作为一个同性恋者，让我感到愤怒的是，喜多川已经化身为了gay的负面刻板印象，比如“一个侵犯小男孩的老头”。不用质疑，问题不是喜多川是gay，而是他对儿童犯下了可怕的性侵犯行为。因此，讨论喜多川是否“被出柜”也是在转移真正的问题。

M: We’re also seeing the emergence of voices questions whether Johnnys fans bear responsibility too.

T: Most fans of Johnnys idols are women. In a country like Japan, where women have a low social status and their desires are often not recognized as legitimate, idol culture has been of great significance as one of the only sites where where women enjoy being the subjects of their desires. If these incidents of abuse had occurred in a male-dominated entertainment culture, I wonder if there would have been voices blaming the fans? When an AKB48 idol shaved their head due to a scandal, there were voices questioning Japan’s idol culture, but I hardly heard any voices blaming the fans. Blaming female fans and female idol culture for incidents of abuse committed by men is a sign of misogyny. Idol fans do not bear any culpability for the actions of Johnny Kitagawa.

On the other hand, some fans are blaming the victims of the sexual abuse, saying things like “Johnny is being outed as a gay man without his permission.” This perspective is wrong. As a gay man myself, I find it infuriating that Johnny Kitagawa has come to embody negative stereotypes of gay men, such as “an old man who preys on small boys.” Of course, the problem was not that Johnny was gay, but that he committed horrific sexual abuse against children. *As such, focussing on whether Johnny was “outed” also deflects attention away from the real issue at stake here (*I have added this sentence to clarify something left unstated in the original Japanese).

M：粉丝可以做些什么吗？

T：我以前的一个研究重点是BL的世界。在上世纪90年代，有一个称为“腐争议”的辩论。在这场辩论中，一些gay评论家强烈批评女性在消费gay的情感，认为腐是女性将她们的利己的幻想随意投射到gay角色上，是一种”表现“的篡夺。“腐争议”其间存在很多批评，和主要是女粉丝和gay之间的激烈辩论。这些对心爱文化的批评在当时引起了女性粉丝的困惑和反感。然而，通过相互讨论，腐争议不仅减少了在BL作品里对gay带有偏见的问题表达，还使日本的BL文化得到了进一步发展，使我们看到了对gay更深层、更敏感的表达创作。

对于那些被杰尼斯偶像拯救过的许多女性粉丝，了解了杰尼斯的问题后可能会感到困惑。虽然这可能需要一些时间，但我坚信如果粉丝们主动采取行动，并继续批判性地思考杰尼斯粉丝文化应该朝何方发展，这将有助于消除他们所热爱的文化中存在的问题元素，最终带来显著的改善。

M: Is there anything that fans can do?

T: One of the main focuses of my previous research has been the world of Boys Love (BL), where we witnessed a debate called the “Yaoi Controversy” occur in the 1990s. Within this debate, some gay critics argued strongly criticized the fact that women were consuming gay men’s romance as a fantasy, stating that “[t]his represented a usurpation of representation by arbitrarily projecting a convenient fantasy for women onto a gay male character.” There was a lot of criticism, and a heated debate ensued between predominantly female fans and gay men. These criticisms of a beloved culture caused confusion and backlash among female fans at the time. However, through mutual discussion, not only were problematic expressions that encouraged prejudice against gay men reduced in BL as a result of the Yaoi Controversy, Japan’s BL culture further developed and we saw the creation of deeper, sensitive expressions of gay men in the genre.

For many of the female fans who have been saved by Johnnys idols may be confused after learning about the Johnnys problem. While it will still take some time, I firmly believe that if fans take the initiative and continue to think critically about what fandom for Johnnys should look like moving forward, this will aid in eliminating problematic elements within the culture that they love and ultimately lead to significant improvements.

在正文之后，我想补充一点相关内容和自己的感想。

近日B博士还指出，日本网络右翼势力在广泛组织阴谋论（我也有意识到），诱导粉丝把对杰尼斯的指控和所谓“反日势力”联系起来，比如给参与讨论的媒体扣上“投韩”或是“投中”的帽子。更有甚者说受害者和在维权的韩国慰安妇一样是“翻旧账讹钱”。可惜的是，确实有粉丝信了，虽然数量并不多。而朝日新闻已经注意到了这个现象，并以为这是粉丝的主流想法（B博士认为信的人并不多），并报导了，这也自然加剧了舆论对于粉丝群体的群攻。B博士说，媒体的诋毁会反而会加剧阴谋论的蔓延，我也同意该观点。

杰尼斯粉丝群体虽然人口众多，但大多在日本权力结构里是绝对弱势，包括大量未成名少女和低收入年轻女性，排挤外界并同时被外界排挤，信息非常闭塞，以及还有很多客观的弊病。这些平常看似不严重的问题，使得粉丝群体难以“正常消化”这个前无古人的恶性事件。其表现是，在如此大是大非面前，粉丝产生了广泛且严重的“道德判断”失准。这在我看来完全是需要严肃应对的“次生灾害”，而非可以隔岸观火的“小规模社会现象”。但是在性侵受害者都还没能得到妥善赔偿的情况下，日本社会，以及粉丝群体自身都完全没有意识到，其实相当多的粉丝是需要“伸以援手”，而非所谓“清醒的冷水”的。尤其是心智还未成熟的未成年人，面对事件本身，和随之而来的群体性情绪爆发，更加需要来自靠谱成年人的辅导。B博士作为日本女性粉丝群体的研究者，以及难得的靠谱成年（外国）人，他的意见正是非常难得的“伸以援手”。他这篇采访着重其实就是解决一个问题“who is, and is not, to blame”，到底什么需要被批评，什么是莫须有。借由回答这个问题，被附加在粉丝群体身上的一些“莫须有”的罪名得以澄清。同时，他也非常直接对粉丝群体喊话“FANS CAN IMPROVE STAN CULTURE”，“你们有能力成为改变追星文化的开端”，并倡导粉丝主动行动，进行批判性思考，只有改变社群的底色才能防止悲剧重演。我甚至觉得，他的某些话说得太客气，太替粉丝说话，像是考虑到了要委婉地指出问题，才能更好地引导思考。

作为曾经的姨妈社群的积极分子，我真的很爱这个社群，这里记录了自己太多快乐和自由意志。所以我才对于现状如此痛心，比起受害者，我甚至更心疼姐妹，心疼这个社群，心疼到要找心理咨询师话疗不够，再找几个朋友话疗的程度。我搞这些信息搬运，是我自不量力的挣扎，因为我怕社群在外忧内患下，既无内部抑制力，又无外部支援，被某种无名的坏东西裹挟，一去不复返，之后换一片土地重生，然后悲剧循环。我所做的说难听点就是“自我满足”，因为我知道这并无卵用，只是在尝试拯救自己内心里很重要的一部分。我现在已经不会为自己其实做不了什么改变而难过了，但是我还是会去做吧，为了自己。