【对话】埃森哲CEO沈居丽谈职场新技能-（下）
埃森哲（Accenture）是全球最大的上市咨询公司，为超过120个国家200个城市的客户提供战略、咨询、数字、技术和运营服务及解决方案，其客户包括多个世界500强企业、各国政府机构以及军队。 现在，埃森哲在全球各地拥有70万名员工，仅过去18个月就新雇用了20万人。该公司意识到，必须想出新方法来招聘、留住并取悦人才。埃森哲CEO沈居丽（Julie Sweet）在采访时谈到了公司的许多举措，包括埃森哲在元宇宙中为员工提供培训。 沈居丽自2019年起担任埃森哲的CEO，并于去年成为公司董事长。沈居丽在工作中得到了法律背景的加持，此前她曾担任埃森哲的总法律顾问，在进入埃森哲之前，她担任著名律师事务所Cravath及Swaine & Moore的合伙人。 《哈佛商业评论》英文版总编辑殷阿笛和沈居丽在“工作新世界”系列视频中讨论了： •无论员工的专业水平如何，埃森哲都希望他们拥有最重要的技能：学习能力。 •AI和其他技术如何帮助员工进行技能重塑，以满足不断变化的市场需求。 •在“增强连接”和元宇宙的帮助下，未来“物质数字化（phygital）”（由物理和数字融合而成）所打造的工作场所可能是什么样子，会给人们带来什么样的工作体验。
以下为视频第二部分的对话内容：
ADI IGNATIUS:
Talk more about that. I mean, I know that you have explored dropping certain requirements, degrees, things like that. And now thinking more broadly, I think you have an apprenticeship program in this area too. I’d love to hear more specifics about how you’re trying to tackle this.
殷阿笛：
我知道埃森哲已经尝试过放弃对某些岗位的要求，例如对学历方面的要求。现在，我知道埃森哲在业内也有一个学徒计划。可以详细说说该计划的更多细节吗？
JULIE SWEET:
It’s starting in North America, although we’ve now done this globally with respect to skills. We re-looked at our job requirements. For example, in North America, nearly 50% of our job openings do not require four-year degrees. And they used to all require four-year degrees. That immediately opens you up to a broader pool of people that you can hire from. And in fact, about 20% of the people we actually hire for those openings do not have four-year degrees. So we’ve expanded the pool of people who we can go after to fill these jobs.
沈居丽：
这个项目始于北美，尽管我们现在在技能方面已经做到了全球领先，但埃森哲仍正在不断审视招聘职位的要求。例如，在北美，我们当前的公开招聘中，大约50%的岗位都不需要四年制的本科学位。过去，这些岗位都要求应聘者拥有全日制的本科学位（4年）。这一变动立即为公司拓展到更广阔的人才库。事实上，在公开招聘的岗位中，约有20%的入职者没有全日制本科学位。 At the same time, we’ve explored other ways of both expanding our access to talent, making a positive impact on our communities, and also creating a more diverse workforce. And we’ve done that through the apprenticeship program. It started actually when I became the CEO of North America in the US back in 2015. We had this amazing program called Skills to Succeed where we were skilling people in the community, but we weren’t actually hiring people at Accenture. And so we started with seven apprentices in Chicago. And that program started actually in 2016, we’ve now had over 1,200 apprentices go through our program. We hire most of them. We have incredible retention. And 20% of our hiring in the US, our entry level hiring in the US, will be through our apprenticeship program, which is about 50/50 men and women, about nearly 60% or more racially or ethnically diverse and almost all come from very challenged socioeconomic backgrounds. And these are individuals who would not have been on a path to get a job at Accenture using our old way of hiring because we had to think out of the box and really look at skills and potential and then be willing to train ourselves. 我们还探索了其他方法来扩充人才获取渠道，在打造多元化员工队伍的同时，增进对社会的积极影响，我们通过学徒计划实现了这一点。该计划开始于2015年，那时我在美国担任北美首席执行官。埃森哲有一个名为“成功技能”（Skills to Succeed）的项目，在这个令人惊叹的项目中，我们为社区中的人员提供技能培训，但当时公司并没有雇用他们成为埃森哲员工的打算。该项目于2016年正式启动，从芝加哥最初的七名学徒，到现在已经有1200多名学徒参加了该项目。现在，我们聘用了其中的大部分人，这是令人难以置信的学徒留职率。埃森哲在美国发布的招聘中，有20%是入门级职位。这部分申请者都参加过公司的学徒项目，其中男性和女性的各占比50%，同时包含将近60%的少数族裔，以保证族裔多样性。此外，几乎学徒计划中的所有成员都拥有极具挑战性的社会经济背景。倘若我们用以前的招聘方式，这些人不可能在埃森哲找到工作。因此，我们必须突破固有的思维局限，真正关注应聘者的技能和潜力，以发现并培养这些人才。 That kind of comes back to that need to be a talent creator. And I would tell you it’s a huge win because these are some of our best employees, great retention, great learners. And of course they’ve opened up terrific new pathways for them. 这又回到了公司需要成为一个人才创造者的话题。我想表达的是，这是一个巨大的胜利，因为通过学徒计划进入埃森哲的应聘者，都是公司最好的员工，他们有很高的留职率且具备较强的学习能力。当然，是他们为自己创造了更好的未来。
ADI IGNATIUS:
I want to shift gears a little bit and this may be to the surprise of some of our viewers, but Accenture is often mentioned as a leader in the kind of corporate applications of the metaverse. What does the metaverse do for Accenture?
殷阿笛：
我想稍微换个方向，埃森哲经常被认为是元宇宙应用领域的企业领导者。你认为元宇宙为埃森哲做了什么？
JULIE SWEET:
We’re really excited about the metaverse. We just put our tech vision out called the Metaverse Continuum. If you haven’t read it, please take a look at it. We think the metaverse is as impactful as the tech vision that we did back in 2013, when we said that every business would be a digital business, which has definitely come true a decade later. And we think the metaverse is that significant in terms of what it’ll do for the next decade. And this year we will onboard about 150,000 people by going through Accenture’s metaverse called One Accenture Park, which we think is the largest enterprise metaverse in the world. It used the beta version of Mesh by Microsoft. And what it does is it brings together people who’ve joined Accenture in the metaverse to explore Accenture, to have a shared experience with other new joiners when we’re still not having in-person shared experiences.
沈居丽：
我们对元宇宙真的感到非常兴奋。埃森哲刚刚提出了技术愿景，名为元宇宙连续体（Metaverse Continuum）。如果你还不知道，请看一下。我们认为元宇宙与公司在2013年提出的技术愿景一样具有影响力，当时，埃森哲提出每个企业都将成为数字企业，这在十年后的今天已经实现。我们认为元宇宙在未来十年有着重大的发展意义。今年，埃森哲将通过名为埃森哲公园一号（One Accenture Park）的元宇宙吸引约15万人，这将成为全球最大的企业元宇宙。埃森哲公园一号使用了微软的Mesh测试版。它的作用是将加入埃森哲元宇宙的人聚集在一起来探索公司，在老员工还没有亲自分享工作经验时，让元宇宙与新员工分享经验。 And our research shows that immersive learning for short sprints, so not all day in the metaverse, this is about a 30-minute experience, is actually more impactful. It’s been extraordinarily well received by our people who are onboarding, who find it, both learning, but also it creates bonds of these shared experiences with other people who are going through it. So I just took my board through it recently and they absolutely loved it. It’s super innovative. And if you’re an innovative company and you’re trying to show that innovation, then there’s no better way than introducing your company to new joiners through some of the most cutting edge technology. 我们的研究表明，相比于一整天都泡在元宇宙内，大约30分钟的沉浸式学习更有效率。这种学习模式受到了公司员工的热烈欢迎，他们发现这既是学习，也是在与元宇宙中的其他人创造共同经历。所以我最近刚刚带领董事会通过了埃森哲公园一号提案，它极具创新性。如果你是一家创新型公司，并且试图展示创新，那么最好的方法就是引入前沿技术向新人介绍公司。
ADI IGNATIUS:
I can imagine what you’re talking about, but for viewers who may think, okay, I don’t get this, I really don’t get what the metaverse is, what is the experience? What are people doing? What are they seeing? How are they interacting in ways that they wouldn’t be just by, let’s say the conversation that we’re having like this.
殷阿笛：
我可以想象你在说什么，但对于读者来说，他们可能会想：好吧，我搞不懂这个！我真的不明白元宇宙是什么，体验是什么，人们在做什么，他们看到了什么。还有，除了普通的互动方式，比如我们正在进行的对话，他们是如何互动交流的呢？
JULIE SWEET:
Instead of just looking at each other and having someone explain, well here, you’re going to learn about TQ and here are the different things that our services do. Instead, when you join Accenture, someone will take you through building your own avatar, which you get to do yourself. You’ll put on some glasses, some people do it in 2D, most use glasses and do it in 3D. And when you step into the metaverse, you are literally with say 30 other people who are also on their first or second day at Accenture. You start by talking to them. They get you familiar with how you move around. And if you’ve had a metaverse experience, it’s like going to a cocktail party where you only hear the people near you. You don’t hear the people far away. So there’s 30 people say in the experience and you’re not hearing 30 people talk at once. You’re actually talking to people as if you were in person next to them.
沈居丽：
在元宇宙中，你将了解TQ，而不仅仅是和老员工四目相对，或听他们照本宣科，这就是我们的差异化所在。当你加入埃森哲时，会有人帮你建立虚拟形象，你可以定义自己在公司元宇宙中的形象。大多数新员工会戴上眼镜，或者直接看着屏幕进入元宇宙。当踏入虚拟世界时，你实际上和另外30个人一起探索，他们也刚刚进入埃森哲一两天。你首先要与其他人交谈，这个过程是在帮助新员工熟悉在元宇宙中的移动方式。元宇宙体验就像去参加一个鸡尾酒会，你只能听到周围人的交谈，而听不到远处的对话。因此，虽然在元宇宙中同时有30个人说话，但你不会在同一时刻听到30个人和你交流。在元宇宙中的交流就像你真的在和别人对话，他们在你身旁一样。 Then we explore, we take you to different parts of the metaverse. So for example, you’ll go to an area where you learn about RTQ training and you can tap on something and it’ll actually immerse you in, “Hey, this is what you’re going to learn.” And you’ll actually see it. It’ll then take you to other parts of Accenture. So we have an innovation lab in San Francisco and you’ll actually go to, in our metaverse, there’s an identical replica of that. You get to go experience and say, “Hey, this is what it’s going to look like when you’re there. Here’s what we have.” You can touch buttons and see the different examples of things like drones, etc. that we have in some of our things. And so it basically brings to life in 3D the world and you’re doing it with people all over the world. 然后我们会进行探索，我们会带你去元宇宙中的不同地方。例如，你会去一个学习RTQ训练的区域，通过点击一些东西，给你带来沉浸式体验，“嘿，这就是你要学习的内容，”你真的会看到它。然后元宇宙会带你去埃森哲的其他地方。我们在旧金山有一个创新实验室，在元宇宙中，你会看到一个完全相同的复制品。你可以去体验一下，然后说：“在现实中它就是这样子的，这是真实存在的。”你可以通过触摸按钮，查看公司无人机等产品样本。元宇宙基本上用3D还原了现实世界，你可以与世界各地的同事一起探索。 You’re beginning to have these shared experiences. You’re talking, you’re able to react with the people standing next to you. You’re able to ask them questions like, “Oh, where are you from? Oh, I’m going to do this.” And so it’s literally as if you’ve been taken someplace physically and are experiencing it with, in many ways, the ways we used to do onboarding because people did come to offices and they would get to experience things. And at the time we might take them on Teams to another innovation hub, but they really get to experience it. 你们会开始有这些共同经历。当你在说话时，你能够对站在旁边的人做出反应。你可以问他们一些问题，比如：“你从哪里来？噢，我要做这个。”就好像你被带到了现实世界中的某个地方，元宇宙与线下的入职流程是大致相同的，因为人们确实来到了办公室，获得了一些体验。在那时，我们可能会用 Teams软件带新员工前往另一个创新中心，他们确实能获得与线下参观同样的体验。 We’re also doing client visits in the same way. I stood up with 30 clients in our innovation hub, entirely in the metaverse, showed them 3D examples of the things that we have there as if they were actually sitting and getting to see it. 埃森哲也在以同样的方式提供客户访问体验。我与30位客户一起在元宇宙里来到埃森哲的创新实验室，向他们展示实验室里拥有实物的3D演示，给他们创造身临其境的体验感。 It’s super powerful and we’ve been doing the underlying technology since 2007. And I will tell you, I joined Accenture in 2010. And I remember my first technology showcase, which we would have at all our internal leadership meetings. And I remember putting on glasses for the first time and I was a lawyer and I was like, “This will never make sense.” And back then it was super clunky. It wasn’t real. It is amazing if you haven’t experienced it, what technology does today. And we’re working on it to do everything from onboarding experiences and doing training. If you’re retail or consumer-facing, it will be just another way to engage. Like we’re overwhelmed by demand right here, because now leading brands all believe they have to have a metaverse customer engagement. 元宇宙非常强大，2007年以来我们一直在做底层技术。我在2010年加入埃森哲，我还记得第一次做技术展示时，是在内部领导会议上进行展示。当时我还是一名律师，回忆起第一次戴上眼镜，我想：“这永远没有意义。”当时设备非常笨重，没法给用户带来真切的感官体验。如果你体验过元宇宙，那么你一定会惊讶于当今的科技。埃森哲正在努力在元宇宙中开展从入职体验到培训的所有工作。如果你是零售企业或要面向消费者，这将是另一种参与方式。现在市场已经供不应求了，因为领先的品牌都认识到必须在元宇宙中拥有客户参与度。
ADI IGNATIUS:
And the technology’s only going to get better. I mean, we spent a lot of time this season talking about dispersed work versus being in office, how many days, and this is something else entirely. And it almost seems like that question could seem quaint if the experiences are so engaging that it will blur what we thought was the value of the in-person experience. I almost question myself as I say that sentence, but that’s sort of the inevitable place to end up, right?
殷阿笛：
也许更令人兴奋的是元宇宙将如何用于实际运营企业。我们在生产基地周围建立了数字孪生，然后从数字孪生到实际基地，从物理和数字两方面做出改变，这真的会改变工作方式和人与人之间的交往方式。在未来，在虚拟世界工作和现场办公相结合将是大势所趋对吗？
JULIE SWEET:
I would say that we will always have physical and digital, and that’s the power of the future is that it’s not all physical or all digital, it’s the mix. And to your point, the technology is at very early stages. While we’ve been literally experimenting and using the underlying technologies going all the way back to 2007, and while the comparison from then to now is amazing, we’re just getting started. And there’s a ton of technology developments that need to occur until we really can be operating in the metaverse in a persistent way across platforms in your personal and professional life.
沈居丽：
我们永远能在物理和数字两方面进行突破，这就是未来的力量。这项技术不是纯物理或数字的，而是混合的。就你的观点而言，这项技术还处于非常早期的阶段。虽然我们从2007年起就一直在尝试和使用底层技术，这项技术在十几年间经历了突飞猛进的变化，但我们才刚刚开始。在我们真正能够在个人和职业生活中，以持久的方式在元宇宙中跨平台运行之前，还需要进行大量的技术开发。 At the same time, the future is, we sometimes call it “phygital”, physical and digital, and it’s just at the ease of going in between those worlds and using the digital worlds and technology to augment connections, relationships, and productivity will remain the goal as opposed to digital being the destination, I mean, fully virtual being the destination. 与此同时，我们有时会说未来是“物质数字化”（phygital），它可以轻松地穿梭在不同世界之间，并使用数字世界和技术来增强生产力。我的意思是，这不会完全转变为数字化的虚拟化的目的地。
ADI IGNATIUS:
I want to ask another question from our viewers, and this is from Adna in Brunei. People are listening closely to what you’re saying about skill sets and hiring. Adna’s question is, in your personal opinion, what would be the most essential skill sets that graduating students should equip themselves with?
殷阿笛：
又一个来自观众的问题：人们正在仔细聆听你所说的有关技能和招聘的内容，在你个人看来，毕业生应该具备哪些最基本的技能？
JULIE SWEET:
Technology literacy, and what I mean by that is you need to treat computer science like reading. Not that you need to ever be a programmer, but you have to have experienced it. You need to have basic knowledge about what is the cloud, what is AI, and some of the best schools really are creating technology curriculums that are not intended to graduate a technologist, so someone who’s actually going to either program or build technology, but to build technology literacy. Until then, really sort of curating your own program so that if you’re graduating, you understand, you have basic understanding of these skills that are really important.
沈居丽：
技术素养，你需要像对待阅读一样对待计算机科学。这并不是说你必须成为一名程序员，而是你需要对技术有基本的了解。你需要具备云技术和人工智能的基本知识，部分顶尖学校确实在创建技术课程，这些课程不是为了让学生在毕业时成为程序员，而是为了培养技术素养。在那之前，你要真正的制定学习计划，这样当你即将毕业，你就能对这些非常重要的技能有基本的了解。
ADI IGNATIUS:
Steve in California asks, and it gets to the sort of full-time employees versus gig workers, “Do you find that you’re using more freelancers as part of your workforce as a way to access the hot skills that you need?”
殷阿笛：
这一个用户提问是关于全职员工与兼职员工之间的关系：在当前公司内部，埃森哲是否有雇佣大量兼职员工为公司工作，以此获得公司需要的热门技能？
JULIE SWEET:
We are not. We don’t really use the gig economy at scale. That may be something that we do in the future. It’s, in large part, because of the sort of demand that we have, the needs for security, the training that goes on. For us, we haven’t found it that productive to do a lot with the gig economy. Certainly, many of our clients are successfully accessing those skills, but I think it’s going to depend on the industry and the kinds of demand that they have. As you can imagine, for us, because we create skills and the skills change a lot, and we have that ability, we’re not dabbling sort of in and out. So, we haven’t really had a big use yet of the gig economy.
沈居丽：
埃森哲并没有真正大规模地利用零工经济，这可能是我们将来要做的事情。兼职员工的雇佣在很大程度上取决于公司的需求，对安全的需求，以及正在进行的培训。对埃森哲来说，我们还未发现大量使用兼职员工能提升公司的运营效率。当然，埃森哲的许多客户都成功地利用了零工经济，但我认为这要取决于行业和需求类型。正如你想象的那样，由于技能变化很大，而且埃森哲有适应技能需求快速变化能力，所以我们不会涉足其中。因此，埃森哲还没有真正充分利用零工经济。
ADI IGNATIUS:
This is from Manuela in Frankfurt. “What role do soft skills play in your hiring process, and do you consider soft skills as the new hard skills?”
殷阿笛：
这一个用户提问是：软技能在贵公司的招聘过程中扮演着什么样的角色？你认为软技能可以被视为一种硬技能吗？
JULIE SWEET:
It’s a great phrase, and I think that soft skills were always a hard skill in our view, and it goes back to that view about leadership. We certainly ask a lot about how people think about, for example, leaders coming in, about how they lead people, which are soft skills. So, soft skills are absolutely important, such as communication skills. In fact, when we were trying to expand our ability to hire more women into technical jobs, because we can do so much training, we actually have gone to, for example, liberal arts schools and hired in more people with great critical thinking skills, really good soft skills, and then train them on the technology. I certainly think that soft skills are absolutely critical, and they’re an important part of the interviewing process.
沈居丽：
这是个很好的说法。在我们看来，软技能始终是硬技能，这可以追溯到领导力相关的观点。埃森哲当然会询问很多员工对此的意见，例如，新上任的领导者会如何领导员工，这是一种软技能。因此，软技能绝对是重要的，例如沟通技巧。事实上，当埃森哲有能力提供大量培训，雇用更多女性从事技术工作时，我们实际上已经在文科学校之类的地方，雇用更多具有出色批判性思维能力的人，这是真正优秀的软技能，然后再培养他们的技术能力。当然，我认为软技能绝对至关重要，它也是面试过程中很重要的一部分。
ADI IGNATIUS:
So here’s a question from New York City. “What steps do organizations need to take to improve the mental health of their employees?”
殷阿笛：
这里有一个来自纽约的用户提问：组织需要采取哪些措施来改善员工的心理健康？
JULIE SWEET:
One of the big benefits, which it’s hard to say that because the pandemic was so difficult, but I think there has been, in the corporate world at least, a real focus on mental health that I believe will continue. We have a leadership essential called Caring for Your People Personally and Professionally, and mental health is certainly an important part of that. I think as organizations, understanding whether you offer the right benefits, doing listening for your people in terms of what they think they need around mental health and then having a strategy around it. If you’re a leader in a company and you can’t say, “Here’s how we are working on making sure that we are helping the mental health of our employees,” then it probably is a signal that you’re not doing enough.
沈居丽：
其实这很难说，但我认为，至少在企业界，人们真正地关注心理健康，我相信这种关注将会持续下去。我们有一项领导力要素，称为“在个人和职场两方面关心员工”，而心理健康无疑是其中的重要组成部分。作为公司，你应当了解是否为员工提供了真正的福利，倾听员工在心理健康方面的需求，然后制定相应战略。作为一家公司的领导者，你不能说“我们正在努力确保员工的心理健康”，如果你这么想，那可能是一个信号，表明你对员工心理健康方面的关注不够。 One of the things we’re really proud of is a partnership that we have with Thrive, Ariana Huffington’s company, where we’ve had over 180,000 people complete a mental wellness computer and science-based program. It’s been probably the most successful program that we’ve provided our employees. The numbers grow each week because it does have really good results in terms of helping people be less anxious and feel more able to care for themselves. The big question in my mind is, “Do you know what your strategy is?” We just hired a chief health officer. One of the things that she looks after is ensuring that we’ve got the right strategy and execution of that strategy. 我们真正引以为豪的一件事是，埃森哲与阿里安娜·赫芬顿（Ariana Huffington）的公司Thrive建立了合作关系。在那里，已经有超过18万人完成了基于计算机和科学的心理健康计划。这可能是埃森哲为员工提供的最成功的项目。而且我们的培训人数每周都在增长，该项目确实帮助员工减轻焦虑。我心中最大的问题是，“你知道应对策略是什么吗？”我们刚刚聘请了一位首席健康官，她负责的事情之一就是确保公司制定正确的战略并执行该战略。
ADI IGNATIUS:
You’ve been lauded as one of the most powerful women in business. There are, of course, many other celebrated female CEOs of big companies, but there’s still clearly an under-representation of top women, of women at the top in business. What’s your view? How will that change?
殷阿笛：
你被誉为商界最有能力的女性之一。当然，其他很多知名公司也有女性CEO，但很明显，女性在企业内高层的占比不足，女性在商界高层的人数也较少。请问你如何看待这类现象？这种情况将如何改变？
JULIE SWEET:
I think there is so much room for hope, not just optimism, because the fact is that it is changing. I remember when I became CEO back in 2019. It was shortly around when Indra stepped down at PepsiCo, and there was this huge lament because she was so much a role model for all of us. It seemed like we were moving backwards. Since then, there have been so many exceptional women, Karen Lynch at CVS, Roz Brewer at Walgreens, Jane Fraser at Citi, Sonia Syngal at Gap. The list goes on and on, actually, which is really nice. I think there’s a lot of hope. What you’re starting to see is that the work that’s been done to create a pipeline of CEOs is starting to happen as there’s generational change. I think it’s good to end perhaps on a hopeful note, as I do believe that there’s a ton of reason for hope, and I see so many great women continuing to rise in companies, and that’s what you need. You need a pipeline in order for it to be at the top.
沈居丽：
我认为依然充满希望，这不仅是乐观，而且是因为事实正在发生变化。我记得我在2019年刚担任首席执行官之时，卢英德（Indra）刚辞去了百事可乐公司的职务不久，人们对她的离开深表惋惜，因为她是我们的榜样。看起来我们似乎在倒退。从那时起，商业领域出现了很多杰出的女性，例如CVS的凯伦·林奇、沃博联的罗兹·布鲁尔、花旗的简·弗雷泽、Gap的索尼娅·辛格尔。实际上，女性知名高管的数量一直在增加，这非常好。我认为未来女性的职场发展有很大的希望。你会开始看到，随着代际更替，CEO的后备人才输送工作开始发生变化。我认为，也许以充满希望的方式结束我们今天的对话是件好事，因为我确实相信有很多抱有希望的理由，而且我看到这么多伟大的女性在公司中持续晋升，这更能帮助我们坚定信心，女性需要一个渠道以进入公司高层。 殷阿笛是《哈佛商业评论》英文版总编辑。 殷阿笛（Adi Ignatius）| 访 孙思宇 | 译 蒋荟蓉 | 校 常敏潇 | 编辑
