【龙腾网】龙之起源
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Satuf 阿联酋
Where does the idea of a giant lizard breathing fire originate from? east asia? Or does it originate from the Babylonians? Mardukh was a dragon god.
巨大的喷火蜥蜴的形象究竟起源于哪里？ 是东亚？还是巴比伦？ 马杜克（Marduk），希伯来语名字为米罗达（Merodach），意思是“太阳之牛”。巴比伦城的守护神。马尔杜克是水、正义、魔法的化身，为万物的创造者，创造了星系和十二星座符号，有复活死人的能力，以利都的创造神，被尊称为“彼勒（Bel）”，意为“主”，相当于巴力的尊称。在苏美尔宗教诸神中原无崇高地位，原为风暴神和生育神。巴比伦在政治上崛起以后，成为众神之父。唯一能与之抗衡的是亚述帝国的主神亚述。马杜克在巴比伦占星术中其象征为木星，在希腊神话中与宙斯地位相当，在罗马神话中相当于朱庇特。
巴比伦至尊神马杜克。
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fangqingming中国
i don't know, but obviously from western just like europe, i think. dragon is a giant lizard breathing fire , that is in western myth. china totem is east dragon, but the word is obviously error translated, that is a totem whole different with " giant lizard breathing fire" . it don't like breath fire, but more like breath water. it's shape is not like giant lizard too. other countrys of east asia , for example, korea, korea culture was influenced by china, so his dragon is same with china. we don't called this totem as dragon, more like to name it as "long 龙", and think that is diffrent with western dragon. so the dragon that have shape of giant lizard breathing fire, it is not from east asia. here is a china dragon picture.
我不知道，不过我想应该是来自像欧洲这样的西方国家。 其实所谓的“喷火巨蜥”只不过是西方神化中的龙。 中国的龙图腾是“东方之龙”，将其翻译为dragon很显然是错误的。中国的龙与那种“喷火巨蜥”截然不同，它们不怎么喷火，更多的时候反倒是在喷水。中国龙的体型也与“喷火巨蜥”有所不同。 东亚的其他国家，如韩国、朝鲜，这些国家的文化受到中国的影响，因此他们的龙和中国很像。我们一般不把这种图腾叫做“dragon”，更多的是称之为“龙——Long”，这和西方的“龙”是很不一样的。 西方的“dragon”形似喷火的巨蜥，东方之龙可不是这样的。 下面就是一张中国的龙图。
The Alani Dragon Rising 英国
回ls I would say the western Dragon(not the word just the image) originated with the Chinese dragon, but was transported west by nomadic people such as the Alani. The Alani using the image to head up their raids would be putting forward an attacking creature. Hence the somewhat bad name of the western dragon in comparison to its eastern counterpart. I love the picture by the way of the Chinese dragon, a picture which seems to add weight to the suggestion of a creature made up of many symbols from many people brought together by an emperor or leader. Note the head and the antlers, an emblem of nomadic peoples over a considerable area.
我认为西方的龙（我指的不是“dragon”这个词，而是龙这个形象）起源于中国，后来由诸如阿兰人这样的游牧民族传入西方。阿兰人往往在作战时使用龙的形象，并可能据此创造出了一种凶猛的怪兽与之对应。久而久之，西方的龙就开始声名狼藉了。我很喜欢那张图中的中国龙，一位君主或领袖将各族的象征组合在一起，使龙的形象平添了许多重量感。注意看这龙的头部，它长了一对鹿角，这就是驰骋于大陆之上的游牧民族的象征啊。 阿兰人，古代黑海东北部的游牧民族。古代占据黑海东北部草原的游牧民族。在1世纪罗马的文献中首见记载。他们专门饲养马匹，经常袭击安息帝国和罗马帝国的高加索各行省。约370年阿兰人被匈奴征服後，只有一部分留在奥尔良和瓦朗斯(Valence)附近定居，大多数都迁往非洲。据说接受匈奴统治的部分是高加索奥塞梯人(Ossetes)的祖先。在译者查找到的资料中，这一民族也被称作阿兰尼人，阿兰那人等。 在《北史》中，阿兰人被称作奄蔡，一名温那沙；《后汉书》称之为“奄蔡国，改名阿兰聊国”； 《史记》为“奄蔡在康居西北可二千里，行国，与康居大同俗，控弦者十余万。临大泽，无崖，盖乃北海云”；《三国志》“又有奄蔡国一名阿兰，皆与康居同俗。”《北史》中那段记录的了该国遣使节到北魏，其时匈奴灭其国的“已三世矣”，即75年，而遣使节到 北魏为西元445年，正好为西元370年左右，与欧洲记录一致。
Naomasa298英国
Well, if you look at this: This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 828x263 and weights 513KB.
好吧，瞧瞧这个： 这张图片是缩小版，点击此处即可查看原图。原画尺寸为828x263，重513KB
Zeno 比利时
About the Welsh Dragon: According to this site which references to a "Y Geiriadur Cymraeg Prifysgol Cymru" or "University of Wales Welsh Dictionary", the word "Draig" (dragon, as in "Draig Goch", the Red Dragon, Welsh national symbol) also meant "Mellt Distaw" (sheet lightning) or "Mellt Didaranau" (lightning unaccompanied by thunder.) In earlier times, however, according to the author, the words was also used for "Maen Mellt" (lightning stone) - a meteorite. The site looks in to the astronomical myths of ancient Britons and has further lixs to books. Morien Institute - The European 'Dark Age' And Welsh Oral Tradition - on the trail of The Dragon.About impacts. COMET/EARTH IMPACT CHRONOLOGY RELATED SITES
关于威尔士龙： 根据"Y Geiriadur Cymraeg Prifysgol Cymru"网站，或称《威尔士大学威尔士语词典》中所述，"Draig"这个词（也就是龙（原文dragon），威尔士的国家象征，红龙，用威尔士语写就是"Draig Goch"）的意思就是"Mellt Distaw"（片状闪电）或"Mellt Didaranau"（无雷声的闪电）。而在更早的时候，按作者的话说，这个词还曾被用来形容"Maen Mellt"（闪电石）------一颗陨石。 这个网站有许多有关古不列颠人关于天文的神化的资料，许多链接都对应着相关书目。 Morien机构—欧洲的“黑暗时代”及威尔士口头传统——追踪龙之起源 .至于那次陨石撞击： 彗地撞击纪念记录 .
Davidius 英国 (回那位中国ip所帖的龙图）
According to oriental dragon lore a Chinese dragon has five toes, a Korean Dragon has four toes and a Japanese dragon has three. The story goes that the more the dragon travels from home, the more toes fall off! I don't know if you count the back toe but the dragon in the picture is either Korean or Japanese.
我听到过一则关于东方之龙的传说，据说中国的龙有五个脚趾头，朝鲜龙有四个，日本龙则只有三个。至于原因，它是这么解释的：龙四处旅行，去的地方越多，掉的脚趾头也就越多！ 我不知道你有没有数过它的脚趾头，不过看这幅图中的这龙脚趾头的数目，我看不是朝鲜龙就是日本龙。
The Alani Dragon Rising 英国
回ls Now that's a fantastic wee story, I like it. The European dragons started out with forward limbs only, I think, maybe they travelled a little too far.
这个小故事可真有意思，我喜欢。欧洲的龙在早期只有光秃秃的前肢，我猜也许是因为他们旅行得太远了吧。
DeliciousTomatoesYay美国
What if they found a giant dinosaur bone in the desert?
要是他们在旷野里发现了一具巨大的恐龙骨架呢？ Mandate of Heaven 台湾 回“我听到过一则关于东方之龙的传说，据说中国的龙有……”
Not sure about the origin of your legend, but in China, 5 clawed dragon symbolizes the emperor. So if you see someone wearing a robe with a dragon patch of 4 claws, he's a prince or a high official.
不太确定你的传说从哪儿得来的，但是在中国，五爪龙是皇帝的象征。而如果你看到什么人穿着印有四爪龙的龙袍，这人要么是个王子，要么就是朝廷大员。
Shaddam IV 美国
Dragons or very similar creatures can be found in many cultures around the world, I don’t think it can be claimed to have come from any one source, but more an archetypal creature that can be found in myths and legends of many different peoples, that varies in appearance, nature, and abilities, but is usually a large serpentine creature often with wings, or at least the ability to fly.
龙以及各种酷似龙的生物可以在全世界许多文化中找到，我并不认为龙这一形象只有一个发源地，但我们或许能找到它的原型——许多民族的神话和传说中都存在“龙”的形象，它们虽被赋予了不同的外表、本性和能力，但大多是形似蛇类的生物，并且往往生着硕大的翅膀，或者至少有着飞行的能力。
The Alani Dragon Rising 英国 I didn't say the source as such, only the conveyance of the symbol of the dragon. They did span from what we know as China right across Asia and Europe, and did use the dragon in battle as an emblem. As I have already said, they were at Ribchester with the Romans as part of the force manning Hadrians wall in the 2nd century. Yes the word dragon comes from a Greek word, but the Chinese dragon symbol goes way further back. It is also true that Greece had similar serpents. However there doesn't seem to be a connection, or should I say the transportation of the symbol the Greeks had in the same way as I've suggested with the migration of nomadic peoples.
我没说龙起源于阿兰人啊，我只是说是阿兰人传播的而已嘛。他们的行程横跨欧亚，还和中国的势力有所接触，而且还在战斗时将龙作为标志。我前面已经说过了，根据在罗切斯特发现的遗迹，他们在公元2世纪还曾与罗马人一道修建哈德良长城。没错，“dragon”这个词是起源于希腊语，但是中国龙在很久以前就诞生了。希腊也确实有几个长得跟蛇差不多的东西，我不否认。可是这些东西之间没有联系，所以我的结论是，希腊“龙”的传播至少要依托游牧民族的迁徙。 哈德良长城： 公元43年，罗马人侵占不列颠。公元122年，罗马皇帝哈德良(公元76-138年)巡视不列颠，决定在英格兰北部修建长城，抵御北方的敌人。长城全长73公里，高约4.6米、底宽3米、顶宽约2.1米，上面筑有堡垒、瞭望塔等，工程耗时6年。 公元142年，罗马人在哈德良长城以北又修筑长达37公里的安东尼长墙。长城的修建，一方面显示了罗马人的实力，另一方面也标志着罗马人开拓疆土的式微。 哈德良长城现已破败不堪，只能从少数断壁残垣和残存的基座一窥昔日的雄风。英国政府自19世纪80年代起开始有组织地保护哈德良长城。上个世纪20年代，英国政府制定《古迹与考古地区法》，哈德良长城的保护遂有法可依。
Shaddam IV 美国
The European dragon’s origins and the mythology associated with it, has its origins in Europe and ancient Near East. I see no reason to assume that the Alani have anything to with draconic imagery or symbolism is Europe simply because they used a dragon emblem in battle and that they traveled around. Of course it might be helpful to know when the dragon emblem first appeared in use by the Alani. Also Chinese dragon symbolism is not any older then it’s European and Near Easter counterparts.
不管是欧洲龙本身还是与之相关的神话,它们都起源于欧洲本土和古代近东。就算他们曾在欧亚大陆上迁徙，曾在战斗时用上过龙图腾，这也证明不了什么呀。当然，虽然证明不了这些，但你的资料或许能够说明阿兰人是第一个将龙图腾投入使用的民族，并且中国龙的出现并不早于欧洲和近东的龙。
I usually don’t like to use Wikipedia, but its got some pretty decent information on dragon mythology and its origin in Europe.
我一般不怎么喜欢用维基百科，不过这次在龙的神话及其在欧洲的起源上，维基百科的资料倒是挺靠谱的。
Dragon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 维基百科——自由的百科全书 （http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon#Origin_and_etymology_2） “The word dragon entered the English language in the early 13th century from Old French dragon, which in turn comes from Latin draconem (nominative draco) meaning "huge serpent, dragon," from the Greek word δράκων, drakon (genitive drakontos, δράκοντος) "serpent, giant seafish", which is believed to have come from an earlier stem drak-, a stem of derkesthai, "to see clearly," from Proto-Indo-European derk- "to see" or "the one with the (deadly) glance." The Greek and Latin term referred to any great serpent, not necessarily mythological, and this usage was also current in English up to the 18th century. The association of the serpent with a monstrous opponent overcome by a heroic deity has its roots in the mythology of the Ancient Near East, including Canaanite (Hebrew, Ugaritic), Hittite and Mesopotamian. The Chaoskampf motif entered Greek mythology and ultimately Christian mythology, although the serpent motif may already be part of prehistoric Indo-European mythology as well, based on comparative evidence of Indic and Germanic material. It has been speculated that accounts of spitting cobras may be the origin of the myths of fire-breathing dragons.[4]”
第一段直接复制自维基中文词条“龙”（为什么维基中文第一段挺正常的下面的就开始斯巴达了。。。） 英语中的“dragon”一词的使用可追溯到公元13世纪，来源于古法语中的“dragon”。 后者则源自拉丁语中的“draconem”（主格：draco），而“draco”一词则是源自古希腊语中“drakōn”（δράκων，所有格：δράκοντοϛ drákontos）[1]。在拉丁语中，“draconem”也可以指巨大的蛇，而在古希腊语中，“drakon”则指巨大的海蛇或海中怪兽。“drakon”的词根“drak-”有“注视”的意思，因此“drakon”字面上可能是指“拥有（死亡的）注视者”。
在希腊语和拉丁语种，此词可指所有的巨大的蛇形动物，而不局限于神话中的怪兽，这种用法直到18世纪仍在英语中有应用。 而将蛇演化成硕大无朋的怪物，并最终被英雄的神性所挫败的想象则滥觞于古代近东神话，这包括了迦南人（希伯来人、乌加里特人）、赫梯人还有美索不达米亚神话。这一形象被传入希腊，并最终于基督教神化混合。
实际上，通过将印度与日耳曼史料的对比分析，蛇这一意象很可能是史前印欧神话的一部分。据推测，对喷射毒汁的眼镜蛇的记载可能正是喷火巨龙神话的起源。 迦南人： 巴勒斯坦的早期居民，讲闪族语系语言，属于闪米特民族的一支。血缘上与阿拉伯人和犹太人相近。曾击败希伯来人(犹太人)对巴勒斯坦的入侵。随后融入其他闪米特民族。 乌加里特： 古代腓尼基沿海城市。位于奥伦河河口之南，即今叙利亚拉塔基亚城北11千米的拉斯沙姆拉遗址。公元前60～前50世纪已有人居住。约公元前40～前20世纪，此地居住着阿莫里特人和迦南人。公元前18世纪被称为乌加里特，形成奴隶制城邦，与塞浦路斯、爱琴诸岛及埃及、巴比伦等地均有频繁的贸易联系。公元前1000多年，先与埃及结盟，后臣服于赫梯帝国。
极盛时期约公元前1450～前1200年。 公元前 1200年左右为入侵的“海上民族”所毁灭。该城市为腓尼基重要海港，手工业和商业颇为发达，居民的航海和殖民活动曾远达爱琴诸岛和塞浦路斯等地。 1929年后，对其遗址陆续进行发掘，发现神庙、宫殿、市政建筑、民用住宅等遗址。 赫梯人： 源自古印欧人的大迁徙，属于印欧语系。 大约在公元前6000年，生存在北高加索大草原上的古印欧人在驯服马与发明轮子之后，开始了向南翻越高加索山脉的艰苦征程。在公元前3000年左右，他们将自己的活动范围扩展到了今天土耳其的安纳托利亚半岛（也称做小亚细亚半岛），并在此缔造了古印欧人的最早文明——古安纳托利亚文明。 公元前3000年后，这支进入小亚细亚的古印欧人被称为古赫梯人（哈梯人）。
fangqingming 中国
ok, i am glad to discuss it. archaeologists of china had find many ancient cultural relics about dragon, these is that: dragon pattern in middle of china.(before 6,400 years) Earthen Bottle that have dragon pattern in ancient ruinning of shanxi province.(before 7,000 years) pottery that have dragon pattern in Inner Mongolia of china.(about before 7,000~8,000 years) the most oldest dragon sculpture is in north of china.(about before 8,000 years) i had heard about that they found a mural in shanxi province of china, (about 10,000 years), but the mural have some disputes on it, so i only said :"MAYBE more early than 8,000 years". of course, china dragon only have some fuzzy image in the neolithic age.
好啊，我很高兴能讨论这个。 中国的考古学家已发现了多件与龙有关的文物，清单如下： 龙形图样，发现于中国中部。（6400年前） 龙纹瓦瓶,发现于陕西省的古代遗址中。 (7000年前) 龙纹陶器，发现于中国内蒙 (约在7000 ~ 8000年前) 最古老的龙形雕塑出土于中国北部。（8000年前） 我听说他们在中国陕西省发现了一幅壁画（大约一万年前），但关于这幅壁画存在一些争议，对此我只能说：“或许不止八千年吧。” 当然啦，在新石器时代中国龙还没有成形呢。 （此处或指良渚、仰韶、红山文化所出土文物，可参见http://bbs.imobile.com.cn/thread-tid-6257255.html）
about famous tribal leaders of china, there had many legends in Age of Teras, but a lot of myth , had not text records, because chinese text systems just start to development but not be a system in that period. dragon apeared as an magic image in these legends, for example , the famous tribal leader, huang di(maybe english translate him as yellow emperor) , he have a assistant who named 应龙(yinglong), notice his name, chinese named china dragon as "龙long", the guy is a dragon, he can controll rain and water. another legend, （大禹）dayu, the leader sloved flood control problem in whole china lands. he let some dragons to walk before people ,because dragons can more know water than humen. then he lead workers to dig river road acrodding the tailprint.
关于那位远古时期的部族首领有许多传说，但大多是些神话，并没有书面记载。因为那时中国的书写系统才刚刚开始发展，还没有形成体系。 在这些传说中，龙作为一种神魔而出现，举个例子，这位著名的部落首领，黄帝（如果翻译成英文的话，可能应该叫做“黄色帝王”吧），他有一个助手，名叫应龙(yinglong)，注意他的名字，中国人给中国龙起得名字都是"龙long"，这哥们也是条龙，他能够控制雨和水。在另一传说中，（大禹）dayu，解决了威胁整个中国大陆的洪水危机的又一位领导者，他让一些龙在人们的前方走，因为龙比人类更了解水。随后他领导工人们沿着龙尾划过的印记进行挖掘，并修建了水路。
although these all are legends, not whole really happened in history . but these legends obvious show that dragon had a lot of influence in that period , and be given definition of water, that is why chinese think china dragon more like breath water until now , and think it is kind, not evil . dragon became totem of china in that period, because Hua Hsia tribe (another opinion is "the tribe be leaded by yellow emperor") start to became a real nation in that period. hua hsia nation becamed han nation of china , and han nation is the main nation of china now, dragon grow up with Hua Hsia nation's development.
根据这些传说，虽然这些传说并不都是真实的，但是这些传说显然显示出龙在那个时代起了很大的作用，并且与水有着某种关联。这也就是为什么中国龙直到现在喷的一直都是水，而且被认为是一种仁善的生物，而非邪恶的怪兽。 在那个时期，龙成为了中国的图腾，因为当时华夏部落的（另一种观点称其为“由黄帝领导的部落”）正开始成为一个真正的国家。华夏民族后来变成了中国的汉族，而汉族现在是中华民族的主体。随着华夏族的发展，“龙”也在不断成长。
some chinese history opinions think, there have a lot of primitive tribes in that period, some are big ,some are small, they almost have totem, sometimes it is deer, sometimes it is fish, hua hsia tribe's totem is a huge serpent , that is a unrest period , these tribes melt into each other by war ways or peace ways. when a tribe join into another big tribe, they add their part of totems to another totem, but almost these tribes all melt into hua hsia tribe finally, that is why hua hsia totem have serpent body and deer horn, and fish flakes, etc. when china be built on the basis of hua hsia nation as a country, hua hsia nation's totem became totem of ancient china.
一些人认为，中国历史上曾有许多原始部落，它们有大有小，几乎每个部落都有自己的图腾。有时是鹿、有时是鱼，华夏族的图腾则是一条巨蛇。那是一个动荡的时代，这些部族通过征战或其他和平的手段实现了融合，在将部落组合成一个大部落的同时，他们也将自己的图腾与对方的图腾结合，但这些图腾的大多数最后都融入进了华夏族的图腾中，这也就是为何华夏族的图腾有着蛇身、鹿角、鱼鳞等等的原因。当以华夏族为基础的中国建立，华夏族的图腾也就变成了古代中国的图腾。
ghostexorcist 美国 （回ls）
I really hope that is a joke.
我希望这只是个笑话。 （对第一张龙图）
My nephew was a big fan of the Avatar: The Last Airbender series during its original run. One thing I found interesting about the show was the mix between western and eastern cultures. The originators of firebending were Chinese dragons with wings. I thought the concept was funny because Chinese dragons are associated with rain. I had to explain to my nephew that Chinese dragons do not have wings, they fly on clouds. However, I later learned I was wrong. The 2,000 year old Guideways through Mountains and Seas (Shan Hai Jing) has an entry on winged-dragons:
我侄子是《降世神通：最后的气宗》的粉丝，现在我可闹明白了，原来动画里所展示的是糅杂了西方和东方的文化啊。振火术的发明者是中国的龙，但却长着翅膀。没想到中国龙居然是和水联系着的，这也太喜感了…看来我得告诉我侄子中国龙不长翅膀，而且在云层里穿行了。不过后来我发现我又错了。在中国2000年前的古书山海经里（原文Guideways through Mountains and Seas）就有一条长着翅膀的龙。 振火术：片中火烈王国占据西方世界的火山群岛上，其人身负“振火术”
(Firebending) mingming 美国
I found out something very interesting today. Dragons in China was the symbol of the emperor. Only the emperor and his family were allowed to wear or own anything with dragons on it. However during the Ming dynasty, dragons that didn't belong to the emperor were "demoted". Which means the dragons of imperial princes all had their fifth claw removed.
我刚才找到了一些很有意思的资料。在中国，龙是皇帝的象征，只有皇帝和他的家人才能穿或使用带龙的东西。但明朝是个特例，那时除皇帝本人以外，其余人所使用的“龙”都要被“降级”。也就是说，所有的王子诸侯都要把自己的龙的第五根指头拔掉。
Edgewaters 加拿大
Misconception here. The Western dragon has only recently become a particular shape of beast, that being a big lizard that flies with wings, of the sort you might see in pulp fantasy art. In medi times, "dragon" could refer to things of many different shapes, including both lizard-like dragons and serpentine dragons; that is to say, the snake-like dragon is hardly unknown in Western mythology. Examples:
各位不要弄错了。西方的龙直到最近才有了固定的形态，也就是你们在低级魔幻制品上常常能看到的那种长着大翅膀的大蜥蜴。 在中世纪，“dragon”一个词可以指代许多天差地别的东西，蜥蜴状的龙、蛇形的龙都行；也就是说，西方还是有蛇形龙的。下面的图就是例子：
