专访 | 卜骁骏：“文化发掘大于成熟建造技巧”
原文标题为：
Сяоцзюнь Бу: «Стремление к изучению культуры гораздо важнее развитых навыков проектирования и строительства»
链接：https://design-mate.ru/read/people/xiaojun-bu-interview
日前，时境建筑接受了俄罗斯建筑平台 Design Mate （https://design-mate.ru ）的俄语专访，现转载于时境建筑。访谈涉及到中西方设计文化对比，人口密度，设计强度，城市化等话题。
Recently,
Time architecture accepted the Russian architectural platform Design
Mate interview, now reproduced in Time architecture. The interview
involved the comparison of Chinese and western design culture,
population density, design intensity, urbanization and other topics.
学习文化的愿望
比设计和施工技能
的发展更重要
论坛 | 时境建筑在莫斯科：从小到大的实践 (中文演讲+俄语翻译)
中国建筑师、Atelier
Alter Architects
时境建筑联合创始人卜骁骏在每个项目开始时都进行了全面的文化探索。尽管致力于当地环境并仔细研究其祖国的建筑遗产，但工作室团队并没有忘记建筑的创新成分和批判性方法的重要性。 在接受
Design Mate 采访时，卜谈到了东西方建筑的差异、现代城市多样化的需要，以及“人”建筑。
🔵M：Design Mate
⚫️X：卜骁骏
🔵M：您说您生长在一个工匠家庭，从小就想将生活与创造力联系起来。 您对这个职业的期望合理吗？
You mentioned that you grew up in a creative family and wanted to be an architect from a young age. Have your expectations of the profession been met?
⚫️X：事实上我并不是来自一个艺术之家，但我的爷爷是一个木匠，我的爸爸也传承了很多工具技巧给我。儿时的我对于空间科学、物理极为着迷，并对平面设计充满了憧憬。直到通过中国的高考，我获得了极高的分数，可以选择中国最好的学校，我才知道我可以选择建筑学专业。在此之后，我接受了9年的建筑学专业教育，包括清华大学和哈佛大学，并到美国的SOM纽约工作了4年。得益于中国的建筑大潮的鼓动，在清华大学期间我就知道我可以开一间属于自己的事务所，并在之后的求学过程中被Mansilla & Tunon（Spain）和 Byoungsoo Cho (Korea) 先生指导说我应该为我自己工作。
目前为止，我依然认为这是非常适合我这个个体的一个专业，它拥有相当强的梦想的成分，并且通过自己的工作达到为社会服务的体验非常令人振奋，而不是一味的为自己的薪水所工作。作为我的个人的成长而言，它也是非常棒的专业，我能够感受到我的个人哲学在伴随着专业知识的成长而逐渐变成熟。
In
fact, I don't come from an artistic family, but my grandfather was a
carpenter, and my father passed on a lot of tools and skills to me. As a
child, I was fascinated by space science and physics, and full of
longing for graphic design. I didn't know I could major in architecture
until I passed China's college entrance examination and got a very high
score, which allowed me to choose the best school in China. After that, I
received 9 years of architecture education, including Tsinghua
University and Harvard GSD, and worked in SOM New York for 4 years.
Inspired by China's architecture boom, I knew at Tsinghua University
that I could open my own practice and was instructed by Mansilla &
Tunon (Spain) and Byoung Soo Cho (Korea) during my studies that I should
work for myself.
So
far, I still think this major is very suitable for me as an individual.
It has a strong component of dream, and the experience of serving the
society through my own work is very exciting, rather than working for my
own salary. As far as my personal growth is concerned, it is also a
very good major, and I can feel that my personal philosophy is gradually
becoming mature along with the growth of professional knowledge.
🔵M：您称您的实践为跨学科的。 它用什么来表达？
You describe your practice as interdisciplinary. What does that entail?
⚫️X：天然的，建筑设计就需要与工程、结构、新的电器等专业合作，在建筑设计层面除了常规的策划专业、社会学专业合作，在我们的工作流程中，还经常要与材料研究者、机械发明家、导演、艺术家、新媒体工作者合作，这种合作并不是单单把他们的需要接纳进来，而是和他们一起讨论、获得设计的灵感、把他们的创作工作变成建筑创作的一部分来影响我们的建筑和城市空间。这些并不意味着建筑学内核的泛华或者瓦解，而是对社会复杂性的回应和公平创作意识的觉醒。
Naturally, architectural design needs to cooperate with engineering, structure, new electrical appliances and other majors. In addition to the conventional planning and sociology majors, in the architectural design level, we often cooperate with material researchers, mechanical inventors, directors, artists, and new media workers in our work flow. Such cooperation does not only include their needs. It's about discussing with them, getting ideas for design, and making their creative work part of the architecture that affects our buildings and urban Spaces. These do not mean the expansion or disintegration of the architectural core, but the response to social complexity and the awakening of fair creative consciousness.
🔵M：你们事务所的工作是基于什么原则？
What principles is your firm built upon?
⚫️X：创新大于完美，批判性大于美学，文化发掘大于成熟建造技巧。
Innovation is greater than perfection, criticality is greater than aesthetics, and cultural exploration is greater than mature building skills
🔵M：您不仅在中国从事项目，还在其他国家从事项目。 您注意到西方和东方建筑方法的差异吗？
You work on projects not only in China but also in other countries. What key differences do you see between Western and Eastern architectural approaches?
⚫️X：由于中国这二十年的建筑繁荣，大量的资金赋予了本土建筑师很多自由，他们得以自由的释放自己的观点并迎合中国的观众，我们似乎发现了跨越东方西方的不同。如果抛开建造技术的先进程度的区别，最大的不同我认为依然来自于文化。
西方建筑学目前虽然已经面临着媒体时代的冲击变得越来越分崩离析，但依然在'有关创新'的思考方法方面占据着绝对优势，这似乎是关于西方知识文化的同一根源性有着极大的联系，并且得益于科学共同体的系统优势，'创新'本身也在西方更加容易形成力量。当然来自东方的学生通过大量的留学并回到东方国家给这些国家带来了建筑创作的新的可能性，并且由于中国的经济的崛起使得东方的作品几乎可以与西方的作品平分秋色，但总的来说东方在现代建筑领域依然是西方的学生，不论是建筑学还是建造学。
得益5000年以上的历史文化，中国作为一个唯一存活到现在的古老文明，中国人以及概念上的东方人（包括日本韩国越南），他们的建筑则更加擅长对于文化的关照，尤其是在当下中国几乎成为了建筑的主要实践阵地这一事实更加让大量出色的中国建筑师跳上原来被西方霸占的舞台，而西方的经济颓势更加助长了最近二十年西方建筑领域'反建筑学'的倾向，这一倾向集中体现在功能主义、绿色建筑、碳中和建筑的兴盛，而这些面临更加擅长宏大叙事的中国建筑师而言似乎没有太大的吸引力。
Thanks
to China's architecture boom of the last two decades, a lot of money
has given local architects a lot of freedom to release their own ideas
and cater to Chinese audiences, and we seem to have discovered a
difference across East and West. If you put aside the difference in the
advanced level of construction technology, I think the biggest
difference still comes from culture.
Although
Western architecture has been facing the impact of the media age and
has become more and more fragmented, it still occupies an absolute
advantage in the thinking method of "innovation", which seems to be
closely related to the same origin of Western knowledge and culture, and
thanks to the systematic advantages of the scientific community,
"innovation" itself is more easily formed in the West. Of course,
students from the East bring new possibilities of architectural creation
to these countries by studying abroad in large numbers and returning to
the eastern countries. Moreover, due to the rise of China's economy,
Oriental works are almost equal to Western works. However, generally
speaking, Oriental is still Western's students in the field of modern
architecture, whether it is architecture or construction.
Benefiting from more than 5,000 years of history and culture, China is the only ancient civilization that has survived to the present, and the Chinese and the conceptual Orientals (including Japan, South Korea and Vietnam), their architecture is better at caring for culture. In particular, the fact that China has almost become the main practice field of architecture makes a large number of outstanding Chinese architects jump on the stage previously occupied by the West, and the Western economic downturn has further encouraged the trend of "anti-architecture" in the Western architectural field in the past two decades, which is mainly reflected in the prosperity of functionalism, green buildings and carbon-neutral buildings. These Chinese architects, who are better at grand storytelling, do not seem to have much appeal.
事实上，中国是唯一文明
幸存至今的古国之一，
因此这个国度的人民都在
小心翼翼地对待他们的文化
🔵M：许多领先的建筑公司正在积极寻求在中国开展业务。 您认为是什么吸引他们来到您的国家？这里有哪些机会？
Many leading architectural firms actively strive to work in China. In your opinion, what attracts them to your country and what opportunities are available here?
⚫️X：显然，除了责任建筑师必须是中国建筑师之外，这里的建筑市场是开放的，大量的建筑需求刺激了对先进建筑的需要，在2000年之后，大量国家级的建筑就被外国人获得了设计权，如国家大剧院、CCTV 、鸟巢等，它们的成功刺激了越来越多有野心和竞争力的境外建筑师来这里打猎，当然中国建筑师也不是坐以待毙 - 我就是接受挑战并勇敢的走出国门并接受西方教育的广大年轻的建筑师的一员，学成之后，我带着西方的教育回到了中国并开始了自己的实践 - 目前看，通过十年的追赶和中国境内的激烈竞争，中国的建筑设计水平已经非常接近西方国家。我想，目前这些领先的西方建筑事务所不光拥有设计的权利，同时也拥有与中国建筑师同台竞争的机会，这也是建筑交流的重要的一部分。
Obviously,
in addition to the fact that the AOR (architect on record) must be a
Chinese architect, the architecture design market here is open, and a
large number of architectural demands stimulate the need for advanced
buildings. After 2000, a large number of national-level buildings have
been designed by foreigners, such as the National Opera Hall, CCTV,
Bird's Nest, etc. Their success has stimulated more and more ambitious
and competitive foreign architects to hunt here, of course, Chinese
architects are not sitting still - I was one of the many young
architects who accepted the challenge and bravely went abroad and
received Western education. After completing my study, I returned to
China with Western education and started my own practice - so far, After
ten years of catch-up and fierce competition within China, the level of
architectural design in China has been very close to that of Western
countries. I think that now these leading Western architects not only
have the right to design, but also have the opportunity to compete with
Chinese architects on the same stage, which is an important part of the
architectural exchange.
Yingliang Stone Archive
🔵M：当前世界，特别是中国等人口稠密国家面临的问题是快速城市化。 在当今城市人口过剩的背景下，建筑师面临着哪些挑战？
The current pressing issue in the world, particularly in densely populated countries like China, is rapid urbanization. What challenges do architects face today in the context of overcrowded cities?
⚫️X：事实上相对于一般的对于城市拥挤的抱怨，长期居住在北京和纽约这样的大城市，我认为这种过度集中反而是一种好处 - 包括集约的资源和高效的能源、交通资源使用效率，发达的教育水平，高度互联的产业链，而这些都依托在现代城市对于人口密度和建筑密度的规划设计 - 以我之见并没有觉得过于不方便。
然而在我们的设计工作当中会出现新的一些设计趋势和反思，例如我们是反对千城一面的,我们需要获得城市的多样性：一些城市已经存在着建筑群的缺乏多样性和创造性的问题。建筑师需要考虑到不同文化和社区的需求，为城市提供更加多样化和独特的建筑设计。
In
fact, compared with the general complaints about urban congestion, I
think that such excessive concentration is a benefit, including
intensive resources and efficient energy and transportation resource use
efficiency, advanced education level, highly connected industrial
chain, and so on. These are all based on the planning and design of
population density and building density in modern cities - in my
opinion, I do not find it too inconvenient.
However, in our design work, there will be some new design trends and reflections. For example, we are against the uniformity of thousands of cities, and we need to obtain the diversity of cities: some cities already have the problem of lack of diversity and creativity in architectural buildings. Architects need to take into account the needs of different cultures and communities to provide more diverse and unique architectural designs for cities.
🔵M：您是否也尝试在您的项目中保留并反映该国的文化背景？如果有，通过什么方法？
Do you strive to preserve and reflect the cultural context of the country in your projects? If so, through what methods or techniques?
⚫️X：事实上，我们试图在保留关于一个项目的各个层面上的文化背景，关于中国性的保留只是其中一个环节，在特定的项目条件下，中国性会非常突出，在有些条件下，中国性很弱，而其他更强烈的文化属性会被加强。
在我们的研究中，这部分工作被我们认为是设计强度的重要组成部分，我们把它当做文化考古来对待。具体来讲我们开启一个项目时，我们会开展广泛的搜索，来确认在这个文化交织的网络中哪个是最为强烈的，有时候是地理、地质，有时候是一块化石，有时候是当地的社区习俗，有时候是多个宗教的冲突；在判断后一个主导的文化要素会领导整个项目的启动，我们会从中抽取设计语言并变成建筑。这有时候很玄妙，但这就是我们的每日工作。我们还在清华大学教授大师班，来更加安静的探讨这个方法论。
In
fact, we try to preserve the cultural context of a project at all
levels, and the preservation of Chineseness is only one part of the
whole. In certain project conditions, Chineseness will be very
prominent, in some conditions, Chineseness will be weak, and other
stronger cultural attributes will be strengthened.
In
our research, this part of the work is considered to be an important
part of 'design intensity', and we treat it like 'culture artifact'.
Specifically, when we start a project, we conduct extensive searches to
identify which is the strongest in this web of cultural interweaving,
sometimes it's geography, geology, sometimes it's a fossil, sometimes
it's a local community custom, sometimes it's a clash of religions;
After judging, the dominant cultural element will lead the start of the
whole project, from which we will extract the architecture syntax and
turn it into architecture. It's mysterious sometimes, but it's what we
do every day. We also teach master classes at Tsinghua University to
discuss this methodology more intensively.
🔵M：您的工作涉及公共空间——体育、文化和博物馆。 什么样的现代公共空间才能让人感到舒适？
You work extensively with public spaces - sports, cultural, and museum spaces. What should a modern public space be like in order for people to feel comfortable?
⚫️X：今天的公共建筑在中国往往需要一种更为强烈的意见或观点所凝固而成的空间形态，因为在平面媒体泛滥的今天，似乎必须有更有力量更为超现实的公共空间才能让人们走出手机世界，这很不幸但确实是我们所经历的。
以作为建筑空间需要权衡好宏大叙事和近人尺度之间的过渡关系，这两者需要有娴熟的手法才能连接妥当，而不是突然的从城市空间直接降落的人的尺度。这意味着设计者需要对城市叙事一直到室内设计领域都有相应的实践经验并拥有自己的设计语言。
Today's
public buildings in China often need a spatial form solidified by
stronger opinions or viewpoints, because in today's flood of 2d media,
it seems that there must be more powerful and surreal public spaces to
let people out of the world of mobile phones. This is unfortunate but it
is indeed what we have experienced.
Therefore, as an architectural space, it is necessary to balance the transition relationship between macro narrative and micro scale, and the two need to be skillfully connected, rather than the human scale that suddenly falls directly from the urban space. This means that designers need to have practical experience in urban narrative all the way to interior design and have their own design language.
🔵M：今天的建筑应该更加“人性化”吗？ 您会如何描述这种方法？
Should architecture today be more "human-centric"? How would you describe such an approach?
⚫️X：这似乎是一个永恒正确的选择，但很遗憾，这个观点这对于承载着复杂社会功能的建筑这一领域会显得力不从心，至少有时候不会放在最重要的角度来加以考虑。反倒是在城市设计领域，以人的新的社会活动为中心的设计方法变得越来越流行。
在我们的实践中，我们较少的考虑人的身体的舒适性或者视觉的预约与否这些方面，我们更多的是在对功能的创新中实现对人的考虑，这是非常有挑战的领域，比方说如何通过大型的悬挑屋面把一个封闭的体育馆延伸到整个校园，通过透明的空间分隔让更多人的学生来到这里能够体验到不同的运动课程。
This
may seem like an eternally correct choice, but unfortunately, this view
is inadequate for the field of architecture, which carries much more
complex social functions, at least sometimes not considered in the most
important perspective. On the contrary, in the field of urban design,
the design method centered on people's new social activities has become
more and more popular.
In our practice, we pay less attention to people's physical comfort or visual pleasure, and more attention to people in the innovation of program, which is a very challenging field, for example, how to extend a closed gymnasium to the whole campus through a large cantilevered roof. Through the transparent space separation, more students can come here to experience different sports courses.
🔵M：在一次采访中，您说重要的是不要重复您之前的建筑师已经创建和实施的内容。21世纪是否有可能发明一些全新的东西？
In
one of your interviews, you mentioned that it is important for you not
to repeat what other architects have already created and realized before
you. Is it realistic to invent something fundamentally new in the 21st
century? Tell us about your experiments and search for innovative
solutions.
⚫️X：老实讲，甚至很多老师都认为这是不现实的，但是我们并不这么认为，我们认为即使我们的创作时基于建筑教育、基于对周边世界的观察，但创新是有其实际的语境的，尤其是在接近艺术的领域。我想你们也一定见过。我这里简单举几个例子：比如DSR的早期作品Blur，一些属于艺术家个人语言的艺术。
To
be honest, even many teachers think this is unrealistic, but we don't
think so. We think that even if our creation is based on architectural
education and observation of the surrounding world, innovation has its
practical context, especially in the field of art. I'm sure you've seen
it, too. For example, DSR's early work 'Blur'; also some art belongs to
the artist's personal language.
⚫️X：我们依然希望在某个领域里能够做到来自我们事务所的原创想法，或者原创建筑语言，这并不艰难，有时候很大的建筑、有时候很小的家具都能做到崭新的创造，我们需要很多的多学科研究，相互交错的信息往往能诞生新的想法；另一个重要的途径是通过长期的坚持工作，深度本身就能把你带到没有竞争对手的创作顶峰。
We still hope to achieve original ideas or original architectural syntax from our studio in a certain field, which is not difficult. Sometimes large buildings and sometimes small furniture can be completely new creation. We need a lot of multidisciplinary research, and the interlacing information can often give birth to new ideas. Another important way is through long-term, consistent work, depth itself can take you to the top of the creative peak without competition.
🔵M：您如何描述“未来的架构”？ 目前建筑领域流行的主要趋势是什么？
How would you describe the "architecture of the future"? What are the prevailing key trends in the field of architecture today?
⚫️X：我心目中的未来建筑依然是被定义为能作为建筑学核心开创者的建筑。很奇怪的是这样的建筑越来越少了，一方面我认为是政治正确正在将建筑拉向综合实力较弱的一方，另一方面是媒体的传播方式的变化使得媒体力量变成了建筑力量的一部分。
我认为当今建筑的主流趋势依然与经济有很大的关联，经济周期下行必然导致大众审美趋向于减少浮夸和贴近功能主义的艺术形态。
In
my mind, the future architecture is still defined as the architecture
that can be the core pioneer of architecture. It is very strange that
there are less and less such buildings. On the one hand, I think it is
political correctness that is pulling the architecture to the side with
weak comprehensive strength. On the other hand, the change of media
communication mode makes the media power become a part of the
architectural power.
In my opinion, the mainstream trend of today's architecture is still closely related to the economy, and the downward economic cycle will inevitably lead to the public aesthetic tendency to reduce the grandiosity and the art form close to functionalism.
🔵M：分享您当前的项目和即将到来的计划。
Please share your current projects and upcoming plans.
⚫️X：我们正在进行的项目包括中国的几个项目：一个位于武汉的90000平米的大型文化中心，一个关于食物的博物馆，一个关于青铜器的博物馆，一个恐龙化石博物馆。我们还有4个位于德国的项目，一个位于莫斯科的项目。以及一系列在我们工作清单上的建筑竞赛。
我们目前已经有三年没有发表过项目了，近期我们将会连续发表五个建成项目，希望能够在不稳定的经济环境中获得更多的社会目光。
Our
ongoing projects include several projects in China: a large cultural
center of 90,000 square meters in Wuhan, a museum about food, a museum
about bronzes, a museum about dinosaur fossils. We also have four
projects in Germany and one in Moscow. And a series of architectural
competitions on our to-do list.
We
have not published a project in three years, and we will publish five
completed projects in the near future, hoping to gain more social
attention in an unstable economic environment.
感谢Plan The Best 传播机构和A-Class House Workshop在ARCH-Moscow展览的框架内组织了卜骁骏的参观和演讲，并协助我们进行了采访。
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垂询：info@atelieraltercn.com
工作：hr@atelieraltercn.com
网站: http://atelieraltercn.com
