【JOJO×CLAMP】荒木飞吕彦 & 猫井椿特别演讲
发表于 2006 年 11 月 17 日
HIROHIKO ARAKI & TSUBAKI NEKOI SPECIAL TALK
荒木飞吕彦 & 猫井椿特别演讲
From the xxxHolic Guidebook, new edition.
摘自 xxxHolic 指南，新版。
Araki: My meeting with CLAMP was quite interesting. Though I don't know if it's all right to say this.
荒木：我和 CLAMP 的会面非常有趣。虽然我不知道这样说是否可以。
Nekoi: It's fine, please go ahead. (laughs)
猫井：没关系，请继续吧。 （笑）
Araki: By coincidence they frequent the same beauty salon as my wife. So apparently she was chatting with the beautician saying "My husband draws manga," and they told her "We have other clients who are manga artists too."
荒木：巧合的是，他们和我妻子经常光顾同一家美容院。显然，她正在与美容师聊天，说“我丈夫画漫画”，他们告诉她“我们还有其他客户也是漫画家。”
Nekoi: That's right. Then I heard that Araki-sensei's wife was there and basically it turned into a huge deal.
猫井：没错。然后我听说荒木老师的妻子也在场，基本上就变成了一件大事。
Araki: We live quite close so said "Why not come over sometime if you like?" and that's how it started.
荒木：我们住得很近，所以说“如果你愿意的话，何不找个时间过来呢？”事情就是这样开始的。
Nekoi: But really, I've only met Sensei four or fives times in total up to now. And it was always the four of us as a group, so I think this is the first time we've had a one-to-one conversation. I'm really nervous.
猫井：不过说实话，到目前为止我只见过老师四五次。而且总是我们四个人作为一个团体，所以我认为这是我们第一次进行一对一的谈话。我真的很紧张。
Araki: Come to think of it, at first I believed CLAMP were male. I thought it was a man pretending to be a woman in order to draw in a girlish style. And then I heard rumors that it was several people collaborating and not just one person, and I thought, What the hell? There were too many pieces of information flying around, I couldn't make sense of it. It was pretty mysterious.
荒木：想想看，一开始我以为CLAMP是男性。我以为是男扮女装，为了画出少女风格。然后我听到有传言说这是几个人合作而不是一个人合作，我想，这到底是怎么回事？信息太多，我无法理解。这非常神秘。
NEKOI TSUBAKI'S FASCINATION WITH ARAKI'S SLIGHTLY ALIEN WORK
猫井椿对荒木略显陌生的作品的迷恋
Nekoi: It was really very early on that I encountered Sensei's work and thought "Wow, I love this person's manga" - with Cool Shock B.T.
Nekoi:很早就我遇到了老师的作品，并想“哇，我喜欢这个人的漫画” – 魔少年BT
Araki:: B.T.! I got into so much trouble with the editors for that one. They said right off the title was impossible, there's no way you can run a manga called "Devil Boy" in Shounen Jump, and that the main character was evil. I had to explain that it was essentially a rehash of Sherlock Holmes and in the end somehow I convinced them.
荒木:: B.T. ！为了那件事我和编辑们惹了很多麻烦。他们从标题就说不可能，不可能在《少年Jump》中经营一部名为“恶魔男孩”的漫画，而且主角是邪恶的。我不得不解释说，这本质上是福尔摩斯的翻版，最后我以某种方式说服了他们。
Nekoi: That's amazing, it was that difficult then. I couldn't have imagined but there was something alien about it I found as a child, I think, and that fascinated me.
Nekoi：真是太棒了，当时真是太困难了。我无法想象，但我想，我小时候就发现了一些奇怪的东西，这让我着迷。
Araki: Really though, the 70s were a period in the manga world where you had to develop to set yourself apart from the crowd. That was the tide, to go where no one else had gone before. I worked hard on that, so it makes me very happy to be told someone liked it.
荒木：确实，70 年代是漫画界的一个时期，你必须不断发展才能使自己与众不同。这就是潮流，去别人没有去过的地方。我为此付出了很大的努力，所以得知有人喜欢它让我感到非常高兴。
Nekoi: I loved it!
猫井：我喜欢它！
Araki: Thank you very much! But, to think those readers back then have become what they are now... it's amazing. They even criticized my work. (laughs)
荒木：非常感谢！但是，想想当时的读者变成了现在的样子……真是太神奇了。他们甚至批评我的工作。 （笑）
Nekoi: Please don't say things that sound so awful!
猫井：请不要说听起来那么难听的话！
Araki: They crowded up and were like "Why did you do such a thing to Jotaro there?!"
荒木：他们挤在一起，说“你为什么要在那里对承太郎做这样的事？！”
Nekoi: But, anyone would do that if they had their favorite manga artist in front of them! You don't know if the chance will ever come again, right? So you want to run up and make them tell you everything!
Nekoi：但是，如果他们面前有自己喜欢的漫画家，任何人都会这样做！你不知道这个机会是否还会再来，对吗？所以你想跑过去让他们告诉你一切！
THE BLACK-AND-WHITE AESTHETIC ADMIRED BY ARAKI
荒木推崇的黑白美学
Araki: If I had to say what interests me the most as someone in the same line of work, it would be how you divide the work among the four of you. I've heard you don't use assistants so… In any case I would venture that xxxHolic is mainly drawn by Nekoi-san, is it not?
荒木：如果要说作为同行业的我最感兴趣的话，那就是你们四个人的工作分配方式。我听说你不使用助手，所以……无论如何我敢说xxxHolic主要是猫井桑画的，不是吗？
Nekoi: I wonder if that's so... perhaps that's not the case? (laughs)
Nekoi：不知道是不是这样……也许不是这样的？ （笑）
Araki: It must be Nekoi-san, surely. The kimono styles, the atmosphere of the art has that feel to it... I don't suppose you can tell me?
荒木：肯定是猫井同学了。和服的风格，艺术的氛围都有那种感觉……我想你能告诉我吗？
Nekoi: No, it's quite all right, I'll answer.
猫井：不，没关系，我会回答。
Araki: Ah, you can tell! I thought this might be CLAMP's greatest secret. (laughs)
荒木：啊，你看得出来！我想这可能是CLAMP最大的秘密。 （笑）
Nekoi: I'll go with the conclusion. The female characters in xxxHolic are drawn by Mokona.
Nekoi：我就得出结论吧。 《xxxHolic》中的女性角色由 Mokona 绘制。
Araki: Eh! Yuuko-san and Himawari-chan and everyone?!
荒木：诶！优子桑和向日葵酱还有大家？！
Nekoi: That's right. I draw the male characters, the yokai, and any spirits that aren't in human shape. And animals. The covers and color pages are Mokona and I together. The overall flow is blocked out by Mokona from Ohkawa's script, after which I check it, and that's how things typically advance. If we get stuck on anything we go back to Ohkawa and ask, "I don't quite understand this part, what is it supposed to be?" and then we fix it. Once everything is settled, Satsuki, Mokona and Nekoi each draw our parts separately.
猫井：没错。我画男性角色、妖怪以及任何非人类形状的灵魂。还有动物。封面和彩页是我和 Mokona 共同创作的。整个流程被莫科纳从大川的脚本中屏蔽掉，之后我检查了它，事情通常就是这样进展的。如果我们遇到任何问题，我们会回到大川并问：“我不太明白这部分，它应该是什么？”然后我们修复它。一切都确定后，小月、莫可纳和猫井分别绘制我们的零件。
Araki: You're really systematic. How did you establish xxxHolic's global aesthetic?
荒木：你真的很有系统性。您是如何建立xxxHolic的全球审美观的？
Nekoi: There's a concept for the cover or opening art each time, and that's decided by Ohkawa. The story and worldview are all Ohkawa. She's like the overseeing producer.
Nekoi：每次封面或片头艺术都有一个概念，这是由大川决定的。故事和世界观都是大川的。她就像监督制片人。
Araki: There's something of an Art Nouveau element to it, design wise.
荒木：从设计角度来说，它有一些新艺术风格的元素。
Nekoi: There's a Japanese-ness to it, and Chinese too.
Nekoi：有日本特色，也有中国特色。
Araki: The gothic atmosphere that permeates the work is a large part of its charm. All that flat black is great.
荒木：作品中弥漫的哥特氛围是其魅力的很大一部分。所有纯黑色都很棒。
Nekoi: We decided not to use tones this time.
Nekoi：这次我们决定不使用音调。
Araki: Yes, it's good to have a clear divide between black and white. That's something I can't do. I can't bring myself to color something in as a flat surface. I have to crosshatch and make it stand out in 3D. Something like a school uniform, it's frightening to color it in… if I bring it down to a basic aesthetic level, perhaps.
荒木：是的，黑白之间有明确的界限是件好事。这是我做不到的事。我无法让自己在平坦的表面上着色。我必须进行交叉剖面线并使其在 3D 中脱颖而出。像校服之类的东西，给它上色是很可怕的……如果我把它降到基本的审美水平，也许吧。
Nekoi: But if I had to choose I'd pick Tsubasa's tactile feel. (laughs)
猫井：不过如果要我选择的话我会选小翼的触感。 （笑）
Araki: I see. But you can also draw in a gothic style. That's amazing! All of xxxHolic has a flat, decorative feel to it, like Japanese prints or Alphonse Mucha.
荒木：我明白了。但你也可以画哥特式风格。太棒了！ xxxHolic 的所有作品都有一种扁平化、装饰性的感觉，就像日本版画或 Alphonse Mucha 一样。
Nekoi: Ah, Mokona likes Mucha.
猫井：啊，莫科纳喜欢穆夏。
Araki: I thought so. It comes across. And the base color of the tankobon covers is never white.
荒木：我也是这么想的。它遇到了。 tankobon 封面的底色绝不是白色。
Nekoi: That's true. It's always gold or silver, and then color printed over it.
猫井：确实如此。它总是金色或银色，然后在上面印刷彩色。
Araki: The feeling that there's an overriding concept at work is what makes it special. I think it's cool. With the JoJo series I wanted to use the classical method as a base and then introduce modern elements in the singular. For instance, drawing in a realistic style but coloring in completely impossible colors. Or completely impossible poses.
荒木：工作中存在压倒一切的理念的感觉才是它的特别之处。我认为这很酷。在JoJo系列中，我想以古典方法为基础，然后引入现代元素。例如，以写实风格绘画，但用完全不可能的颜色着色。或者完全不可能的姿势。
Nekoi: Impossible poses... but the fans imitate the poses? The "JoJo poses."
猫井：不可能的姿势……粉丝却模仿？ “JoJo 姿势”。
Araki: True, true. That's the thing, I aim for impossible but then am like, "Huh? Well, I guess it's possible after all..." (laughs)
荒木：确实，确实。就是这样，我的目标是不可能的，但随后我会想，“嗯？好吧，我想这毕竟是可能的......”（笑）
WHERE IS REALITY? THE DAY THE KAPPA APPEARED IN TOONO
现实在哪里？河童出现在图野的那一天
Araki: Does CLAMP ever travel for research purposes?
荒木：CLAMP 是否曾经为了研究目的而旅行过？
Nekoi: Almost never. We know that drawing from imagination can't approach the solidity that comes with research, that level of reality where people can say, "Turn the corner right there and you'll see my house..." But if you take the scenery from xxxHolic, for example, the place where Yuuko-san exists is an enclosed courtyard really. Aside from that I think depicting fantasy in a fantastical way is also a matter of technique. Well – one of our early stories did have an Indian flavor to it.
猫井：几乎没有。我们知道，想象中的绘画无法达到研究带来的可靠性，人们可以说，“在那儿拐个弯，你就会看到我的房子……”但如果你把风景拿来xxxHolic，比如说优子小姐所在的地方，确实是一个封闭的庭院。除此之外，我认为以奇幻的方式描绘幻想也是一个技巧问题。嗯——我们早期的一个故事确实有印度风味。
Araki: I understand. For my part, you see, I'm currently drawing a journey as my main theme. I started wondering about the psychology of someone who's been walking for three days straight. So I went and walked the Kumano pilgrimage road, which is a World Heritage site, to see what it was like.
荒木：我明白了。就我而言，你看，我目前正在绘制一段旅程作为我的主题。我开始好奇连续三天行走的人的心理。于是我就去走走世界遗产的熊野参拜道，看看到底是什么样子。
Nekoi: Wow. And did you understand anything from it?
猫井：哇。你从中明白了什么吗？
Araki: Yup. After three days, first of all you want to throw away everything you're carrying. I even wished I could throw away the cel phone they told me to carry in case I came across a bear. And when I saw the shrine at the end of the road, I felt thankful from the bottom of my heart. I honestly and unironically thought, "Thank god I came this far without getting hurt." It cleansed my heart, perhaps? I understood then that the road was put there in order to give people that experience.
荒木：是的。三天后，你首先想扔掉你携带的所有东西。我什至希望我能扔掉他们告诉我携带的手机，以防万一我遇到一只熊。当我看到路尽头的神社时，我从心底里感到了感激。我诚实而讽刺地想：“感谢上帝，我走了这么远，没有受伤。”也许它净化了我的心？我当时就明白了，这条路是为了给人们这种体验而设置的。
Nekoi: That's a World Heritage site for you.
猫井：那对你来说就是世界遗产。
Araki: xxxHolic takes place in a magical alternate world, doesn't it. What I get hung up on is, What are those yokai-like things?! The ones shaped like young girls and the ones shaped like animals, and the monster types, are they all part of the same existence?
荒木：《xxxHolic》发生在一个神奇的平行世界，不是吗？令我困惑的是，那些像妖怪一样的东西是什么？！少女形状的、动物形状的、怪物类型的，都是同一个存在吗？
Nekoi: Er...the properly-formed yokai and the monster-like ayakashi are different things actually. But then, if you put them all together one can't say much other than "Well, that's the kind of world it is."
猫井：呃……正常形态的妖怪和怪物般的妖怪其实是不同的东西。但是，如果你把它们放在一起，除了“嗯，这就是这个世界”之外，我们不能说太多。
Araki: The "Stands" in JoJo can be conceptualized as a reification of hidden talent, with their source being a sort of energy that's been in the earth since ancient times. So there are no real monsters or yokai in my story. I've never really been able to get the existence of such things. I looked at Mizuki Shigeru-sensei's drawings and thought they were lovely, but when I saw something like a "bean washer" in the picture I would just think, What's up with that? I couldn't see any reason for that creature to exist. Purely for the sake of washing beans?
荒木：《JoJo》中的“替身”可以被概念化为隐藏天赋的具体化，其来源是一种自古以来就存在于地球中的能量。所以我的故事里没有真正的怪物或妖怪。我从来没有真正能够了解这些东西的存在。我看着水木茂老师的画，觉得很可爱，但当我看到画中类似“洗豆机”的东西时，我就会想，这是怎么回事？我看不出该生物存在的任何理由。纯粹是为了洗豆子吗？
Nekoi: That's true. It's the sort of world where you go take a bath and there's an "akaname" in there.
猫井：确实如此。这是一种你去洗澡并且里面有一个“别名”的世界。
Araki: Exactly. What the heck is it? Is it an enemy? An ally? What does it want? If you can't figure out that much how are you supposed to fight it! Is what I think.
荒木：没错。到底是什么？是敌人吗？盟友？它想要什么？如果你连这么多都搞不清楚，那你该如何应对呢！我是这么想的。
Nekoi: That's a Jump-like way of looking at it. (laughs)
Nekoi：这是一种类似Jump的看待方式。 （笑）
Araki: With that in mind, the other day I went to Toono, in Iwate. In order to gain a better understanding of yokai.
荒木：考虑到这一点，前几天我去了岩手县的远野。为了更好的了解妖怪。
Nekoi: Waaah! Such lengths. (laughs)
猫井：哇啊啊！这样的长度。 （笑）
Araki: "I'd like to draw yokai tooo" was what I was half-thinking. (laughs) So I went to the Kappa River there, the one that's famous for kappas, and stood on the riverbank spacing out. And as I was standing, there was this middle school-aged boy there at the same time, and he bursts out with, "Hirohiko's in the Kappa River!" Like, "Big bro, look, there's a Hirohiko in the Kappa River!"
荒木：“我也想画妖怪”是我半心半意的想法。 （笑）所以我去了那里的河童河，那条河以河童而闻名，站在河岸上发呆。当我站着的时候，同时有一个中学生在那里，他突然大声喊道：“荒木在河童河里！”就像，“大哥，你看，河童河里有一个荒木！”
Nekoi: *dies*
Araki: And even I for some reason thought for a split second, "Gah, I have to get out of here!" At that moment I finally understood what it must feel like to be a yokai. (laughs)
荒木：就连我也不知为何一瞬间想到：“啊，我必须离开这里！”那一刻我终于明白了身为妖怪的滋味。 （笑）
Nekoi: You understood what it feels like to be a yokai, huh... (laughs) I bet it's passed into legend by now. His brother came and said, "There's no such thing, you're lying!" And he said, "It was really there, I saw it!" And there was a huge disturbance, and years afterward you'll hear the story of the kappa Hirohiko in the river.
Nekoi：你知道当妖怪是什么感觉吧……（笑）我敢打赌现在它已经成为传说了。他的哥哥走过来说：“没有这样的事，你在撒谎！”他说：“它真的在那里，我看到了！”发生了一场巨大的骚乱，多年后你会听到河童荒木的故事。
Araki: So there, I think that might be what yokai really are.
荒木：所以我认为这可能就是真正的妖怪。
FIGHTIN' PRESIDENTS AND DRAMA AT HIGH NOON
正午的总统之战和戏剧
Araki: If it had an Indian flavor... do you watch a lot of movies? On DVD or whatever.
荒木：如果有印度风味的话……你看电影很多吗？ DVD 或其他任何形式。
Nekoi: I watch films in the usual way, because I'm always following fads. I liked "Jurassic Park".
Nekoi：我以平常的方式看电影，因为我总是追随时尚。我喜欢“侏罗纪公园”。
Araki: I like stuff like that too. Like "Jaws". But recently I've really been into Michael Mann's films: "Heat", "Collateral" and so forth. I like the sense one gets that the characters are driven by fate, but they don't hesitate over their actions. They hurtle toward their destiny in a way that goes beyond considerations of good or evil. It makes me weak at the knees. They're not movies you're supposed to cry at but I get tears in my eyes anyway. I think, "Oh, you people!" Do you have anything like that?
荒木：我也喜欢这样的东西。比如《大白鲨》。但最近我真的很喜欢迈克尔·曼的电影：《盗火线》、《抵押品》等等。我喜欢这样一种感觉：角色是由命运驱动的，但他们对自己的行为毫不犹豫。他们以一种超越善恶的方式冲向自己的命运。这让我的膝盖发软。它们不是你应该哭泣的电影，但无论如何我都会流泪。我想：“哦，你们这些人！”你有类似的东西吗？
Nekoi: I'm faddish but I did like "Independence Day".
Nekoi：我很时尚，但我确实喜欢《独立日》。
Araki: The story's pretty astonishing in that one. In order to fight with aliens, they get into a flying saucer that was buried on earth by aliens in the past. The human strategy was like ripping off the opponent's fundoshi in sumo. The designs all came from other science fiction works. And on top of it all the President himself flew the saucer to fight. When I saw that I decided the party would be battling the President in Steel Ball Run.
荒木：这个故事相当令人惊讶。为了与外星人战斗，他们进入了过去被外星人埋在地球上的飞碟。人类的策略就像在相扑比赛中撕掉对手的足底一样。这些设计均来自其他科幻作品。最重要的是，总统亲自驾驶飞碟参加战斗。当我看到这一点时，我决定该党将在“钢球奔跑”中与总统作战。
Nekoi: Really?!
Araki: Yeah, I realized a fighting President is awesome. Was there ever anything like it?
荒木：是的，我意识到战斗的总统很棒。有过类似的事情吗？
Nekoi: It's very American. Although maybe Americans themselves don't realize it. And it was a German who made it. I think he made it with the intention that that's what Americans would like to see, and it really hit home. I like it too! (laughs)
Nekoi：非常美国化。尽管也许美国人自己并没有意识到这一点。这是一个德国人创造的。我认为他这样做的目的是美国人希望看到这一点，这确实击中了要害。我也喜欢这个！ （笑）
Araki: What about Japanese films? I don't go to the theater but I watch a lot of DVDs. I saw "Sekachu" and so on.
荒木：那日本电影呢？我不去电影院，但我看了很多 DVD。我看到了“Sekachu”等等。
Nekoi: Wow, you saw it?
猫井：哇，你看到了吗？
Araki: Yes, it was good.
荒木：是的，很好。
Nekoi: Was it!
猫井：是吗！
Araki: Yes. I'm the type who cries at everything. That's right, lately I've gotten hooked on daytime soaps. Ever since "Shinju Fujin" I can't go without checking in with the latest developments. She became his lover with the aim of getting her hands on his fortune! It's awesome!
荒木：是的。我是那种什么事都会哭的人。是的，最近我迷上了日间肥皂剧。自从《新州风神》之后，我就不能不去看看最新的进展。她成为他的情人，就是为了得到他的财产！这很棒！
Nekoi: (laughs)
Araki: The dialogue gives one thrills down the spine. They say such dangerous and suggestive things the viewer's left panting. Like, is it all right to show that? But there they have it on television, at high noon.
荒木：这段对话让人脊背发凉。他们说出如此危险和暗示的话，让观众气喘吁吁。比如，可以展示这一点吗？但他们在正午时分在电视上播出。
Nekoi: It feels like you watch it to enjoy the names.
Nekoi：感觉就像是为了欣赏名字而看的。
Araki: Exactly. A lot of manga artists seem to watch soaps, because time-wise it's just when one's getting out of bed. Morita (Masanori) sensei told me he also watches them. (laughs)
荒木：没错。很多漫画家似乎都看肥皂剧，因为从时间上来说，正是起床的时候。森田（Masanori）老师告诉我他也看它们。 （笑）
CLAMP'S MYSTERY VERSUS ROHAN KISHIBE'S SKIN: AND ONWARD, LEGEND
CLAMP 的谜团与岸边露汉的皮肤：继续，传奇
Araki: Many of CLAMP's mysteries were made clear to me today, so for my part this has been a meaningful hour spent. Thank you very much.
荒木：今天我明白了 CLAMP 的许多谜团，所以对我来说这是一个有意义的时间。非常感谢。
Nekoi: The pleasure's all mine, thank you very much. Though I would have liked to talk more about JoJo.
Nekoi：很荣幸，非常感谢。虽然我想更多地谈论JoJo。
Araki: But today we're talking about xxxHolic.
荒木：但今天我们谈论的是 xxxHolic。
Nekoi: Don't you think we should reveal more of JoJo's mysteries too, even for the sake of the reader?
Nekoi：你不认为我们也应该揭示更多 JoJo 的秘密吗，即使是为了读者？
Araki: Oh, I think it'll be quite enough if you say "He's so cool and looks just like Rohan Kishibe ♥." (laughs)
荒木：哦，我想如果你说“他太酷了，看起来就像岸部露伴♥”就足够了。 （笑）
Nekoi: Oh yes, that's true. He's so cool and looks just like Rohan Kishibe. *laughs* And you look younger and younger in the photos that get published these days.
Nekoi：哦，是的，确实如此。他很酷，看起来就像岸部露伴。 *笑*在这些天发布的照片中，你看起来越来越年轻。
Araki: That's because I'm a Ripple user. (laughs)
荒木：那是因为我是波纹使者。 （笑）
Nekoi: Please do become a new legend in Toono, I'd love to see it.
Nekoi：请成为远野的新传奇吧，我很想看到它。
Araki: Leave it up to me. (laughs)
荒木：交给我吧。 （笑）
