So you want to be a mentor所以你想成为导师

MARIELLE SEGARRA, HOST:

This is NPR's LIFE KIT with tools to help you get it together.

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SEGARRA: Hey, everybody. Marielle Segarra here. There's this thing that happens in life. Once you get some experience at work or with a hobby or with parenting, whatever, you may want to share it, to pass along what you're learning, to make things a little easier for the next person who's climbing the mountain behind you. You want to be a mentor. On LIFE KIT today, we have a special episode about mentorship. It's a conversation between me and Massella Dukuly, the head of workplace strategy and innovation at the media and advisory firm Charter. And we did it live in front of an audience at On Air Fest in Brooklyn, an event for audio makers. We talk about who can be a mentor, share tips on how to structure these relationships. And we even do a little role-play where she's the mentor and I'm her wide-eyed mentee.

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SEGARRA: So I want to talk early on about what a college professor of mine would have called the WIIFM.

MASSELLA DUKULY: OK.

SEGARRA: She - I took this speech class in college. And she would write up on the board WIIFM, which meant, what's in it for me? And I try to remember that in any speech. But just in general, if you're talking about something, it's like, I'm sure we're all interested in being mentors out of the goodness of our hearts. But also, it's not a one-sided relationship, right? Like, there are other reasons to be a mentor.

DUKULY: One thousand percent. So my organization, Charter, we recently, actually, partnered with Qualtrics to do some research on mentor-mentee relationships. And specifically, like, we were trying to kind of figure out, can you have a solid mentor-mentee relationship virtually? And the fact is that you absolutely can. But one of the other findings that we realized was that, like, successful mentor-mentee relationships, the mentor often feels like they've gained something. And so, I think what's really unfortunate is that we have a tendency to assume that, you know, if you're a mentor, you're just, like, kindly giving out of your heart and so lovely and really nice. But it really shouldn't be that way.

When you think about, you know - what can a mentor get? - I'd say, first and foremost, this is an opportunity for them to develop a skill. Being good at a thing doesn't mean that you're good at helping somebody else be good at that thing. So learning to be able to teach, communicate in a way that's actually fruitful, is one of the other gains. And I think, inherently, it generally makes people better at the thing that they're doing.

Secondarily, I would also say, new perspective. An example of this - I had a friend who has a mentee. And she would say to me, one of the wildest things that she didn't expect from the relationship was how much she appreciated the fact that this person took risks, like, would say yes to everything because the mentee saw it as, like, just a growth opportunity. And it really put her in a position to kind of think about how to be a little bit more intentional with risk-taking in her life. And, you know, as the relationship sort of progressed, she realized that she was taking on more risks. And that felt very worthwhile.

SEGARRA: OK. So who can be a mentor?

DUKULY: I mean, anyone can. But it really requires diligence and understanding of how to set in place structure that's going to be meaningful for both you and the mentee. So just to kind of break that down really easily, I'd say, who can be a mentor? Somebody who, first of all, has the desire to be a mentor, somebody who's open to structure in their relationship with the person. This could be setting up cadence, setting up, like, clarity around responsibilities in the relationship. And, like, for what it's worth, that can be hard sometimes. Like, we're, as humans, like, not always that good at saying, here's what I need from you. And so if you want your mentor-mentee relationship to work well, you want to be thinking about those things.

SEGARRA: Another thing that you could get, another value that you could get out of being a mentor, probably, is learning how to have those conversations and how to communicate.

DUKULY: Absolutely. Absolutely...

SEGARRA: Yeah.

DUKULY: ...Because if those things aren't happening or aren't working well, you're going to need to talk about them.

SEGARRA: Yeah.

DUKULY: And, you know, sometimes conflict can feel uncomfortable. Or sometimes feedback can be scary. But it's really fundamental in ensuring that you don't, like, prolong a relationship. And think about the damage that you end up creating if you're not forthright about the fact that this doesn't feel right or this isn't working or here's what I need.

SEGARRA: Right. So if you don't have time, maybe, let's say, to mentor somebody...

DUKULY: Yeah.

SEGARRA: ...But you want to help them in some way, you think they're talented, maybe you offer to make an introduction...

DUKULY: Correct.

SEGARRA: ...To someone for them. Or - yeah, or help them meet someone else who has that time and can be a mentor for them.

DUKULY: Absolutely. Absolutely.

SEGARRA: Yeah. OK. So if you do want to be a mentor, if you're excited about this, where do you find mentees?

DUKULY: It's tricky because there's a space where, like, you don't want to be condescending to someone and be like, look at you. I can help you. Like, that doesn't...

(LAUGHTER)

DUKULY: That doesn't sound very good. I think, like - here's the thing, at the core of this, especially with a mentee, it's about relationship-building. You really want somebody who feels like they can be open and vulnerable with you. And so I think one of the core things to do is also being very active about - actively explicit about what it is that you want, so being able to say something like, hey, like, I feel like I have X, Y, and Z skills. I wouldn't, you know, lay it out as saying, like, I'm so great at everything. And I want to help everybody. It's saying, I - you know, I really enjoy communication. I think it's something that I'm, you know, feeling masterful in or feeling like I do a really great job. And I'd love to support somebody who isn't feeling that confident about it yet, and making it so that people can decipher for themselves what their needs are.

Maybe you do that at your workplace. Maybe you do that at school. The other thing - way that I've seen it actually be very helpful is, like, sharing it with friends, saying to friends, hey, I'm really interested in sharing this particular skill with somebody. If you know anybody that might be interested, let me know. I find especially that way when there's, like, a point of contact - and when I say point of contact, it's not to say that you can't meet somebody randomly. Like, I met my husband on the Q train, so do you. But I will say...

(LAUGHTER)

SEGARRA: Wow.

DUKULY: I did. I know. We're like, let's talk about that.

(LAUGHTER)

DUKULY: And he didn't murder me, so you know...

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Love that for you.

DUKULY: (Laughter) Exactly. But what I mean is, like, you know, it can be really nice when, like, you got a little social proof. This person knows this person. There's a little bit of responsibility to each other. Talking to friends, talking about your needs, that way other people can speak clearly about those desires and hopefully make connections. We all want to be, like, you know, matchmade in some way. Maybe it's not that type of relationship or a romantic relationship. But it could be a mentor or a mentee.

SEGARRA: OK. I imagine there are also going to be more scenarios where potential mentees are coming to you, right?

DUKULY: Yeah.

SEGARRA: How do you figure out if it might be a good fit?

DUKULY: OK, so a few different things. First, there's, like, starting with yourself. Do I have time to offer this person? Can I be honest with this person? Sometimes it can be really flattering when somebody comes to you and they're like, hey, I admire you; I would love your support in this thing. And at least for me, like, if somebody, like, emails me, I'm probably going to answer just because, like, I don't - like, it's rude.

SEGARRA: It's very kind.

DUKULY: And, like, I just want to be nice. Like, I just want to be helpful. I might not be able to, like, take you to your finish line, but it's just like, I'll respond. But that's very different than saying, like, I'm going to be in a relationship with you. So there's the assessment of time, energy, all of those types of things.

Another thing that I want to kind of gauge is what they're looking for. So what can really be unfortunate or kind of be - go wrong very early in a mentor-mentee relationship is when the person's like, I just want help. I'm like, with what? Like, I'm trying to figure it out, too. Like, what do you want help with? And it's - I'm not saying you have to have the clear picture, like, give me point A, B, C, you know, this angle, that angle. But there needs to be some level of clarity. If somebody is unclear with you, it's going to be really hard to actually please them. Like, what do they want, and how can you actually serve that well?

And then also, like, what are your expectations, right? Like, is that OK? So if I say to somebody, hey - like, I had a mentor that I worked with for probably about, like, six months, and she wanted it just for that period of time. She was going through, like, a project that she was working on. And, you know, I was like, listen; I will respond to you - like, if you text me or something, I might not be able to respond this time, but I'll respond, you know, at this time. Like, you know, and it seems so transactional, but it was really important because we eliminated any assumptions or fears or things in a relationship that might be scary. Like, I texted, and they didn't text me back. What's going to happen? But here's the thing. Somebody might say, you know what? I actually need a relationship where I'm getting more of that versus, like, what you can give, and it helps us to pick each other.

SEGARRA: Yeah.

DUKULY: So I just think you want to be really clear up front on both sides so both parties can decide if that's what they're looking for.

SEGARRA: Somebody quoted Brene Brown to me yesterday - clarity is kindness.

DUKULY: I agree. Thank you, Brene.

SEGARRA: Yeah.

(LAUGHTER)

SEGARRA: It's very - it's helpful to say to someone, this is what I can offer, and this is what I can't.

DUKULY: Yeah.

SEGARRA: And maybe then you're one of their mentors. You know?

DUKULY: Yeah.

SEGARRA: I guess with that in mind, though, do you have to have, like, the official-define-the-relationship talk? Like, is this will you be my mentor kind of thing?

DUKULY: Yeah. You know, it doesn't always start that way.

SEGARRA: Yeah.

DUKULY: But I do think that clear is kind. And I do think that, specifically, when you, like, are wanting something from someone, if it's not clear, it just - like, it's bound to set you up for failure. The only person I have, like, an unclear mentor relationship with is, like, Oprah, you know, 'cause...

(LAUGHTER)

DUKULY: ...I don't know her, and she's not - like, you know what I mean? That's like, OK, girl...

SEGARRA: She doesn't know that she's your mentor.

DUKULY: ...Whatever you want to do, whatever you want to give me, I will take. But, like, in most situations, it's just, like - it's so important to be able to say, like, I'm choosing to be - and you don't have to have the definition of, you are my mentor. If you want to say, this is my friend who supports me, if you want to say, this is my big brother, if you want - whatever it is you want to use is fine, but there needs to be an understanding. It's the same reason why, like, in any relationship, whether it be romantic or a friendship, like, we're colleagues, we're friends, we're whatever, and then we sort of assign, you know, different responsibilities within those relationships. And I think that's what can be helpful in terms of boundaries. Usually, sometimes those things blur. But if you notice, that's often why it tends to get messy because, suddenly, it was one thing, and now it's another thing. So for this sake, because you want something specific, I think you need to define it.

SEGARRA: What I heard in your earlier answer was that the mentee should kind of drive the relationship and say, this is what I'm looking for; this is what I'd like help with. I also imagine that some folks, especially if they're earlier in their careers, might not know exactly how to create that structure. Are there ways as a mentor that you can help guide them and say, like, here's an example of what you might be looking for, or here's what would be helpful for me to know?

DUKULY: Yeah, absolutely. I think you want to be really clear about the fact that, like, it's OK to change their mind. It's OK to evolve. And also be really clear, like, if something changes and it doesn't align with our relationship anymore, like, let me know. Like, it's not just that a mentor should be like, you do this, this and this. This person needs to be bought into the relationship. It is a relationship. So a mentor can offer the advice for structure, but it needs to be like, what do you think? Bring the mentee into the experience, and if they are like, I don't know what I think, I'm just trusting you, you can be like, OK, cool. Let's give it a try, and we'll see if that works, and next time I'm going to have you try this. We really want to kind of build, I think, some reciprocity in the relationship so that the person does feel comfortable leading and deciding what actually works for them.

SEGARRA: OK. So if you are structuring this, is there a best practice in terms of how often you meet?

DUKULY: Yes. So one of the pieces of - one of the findings that we found in our research with Qualtrics was that highly successful mentor-mentee relationships - and by highly successful, I mean people who believe that in a six-month period, they solved about 70 to 81% of their goals with their mentor - actually met one time a week.

SEGARRA: OK.

DUKULY: And so that's interesting because I have to - yeah. I see some of these people are like, oh. And...

SEGARRA: Kind of a lot.

(LAUGHTER)

DUKULY: Yeah.

SEGARRA: Yeah.

DUKULY: We're all like, time - where is it? You know, and then we're, like, home on the couch.

SEGARRA: Yeah.

DUKULY: Netflix is like, are you still watching this?

SEGARRA: Yeah (laughter).

DUKULY: But, like, that's what it is. And I think it is about cadence, right? So one time a week - even for me, I was like, oh, that's a lot. But people usually do this in bursts. So you might say, I'm doing this for a three-month period. I'm doing this for a six-month period. It's usually not, like, an ongoing, belaboring thing. It's saying we're going to take a stint, and we're going to do this, and we're going to get something done. And so to me, I'm like, OK, that makes sense. But yeah, one time a week - you know, if you can't push that because life, you know, I'd say even if it's, like, once every other week, but really trying to commit to something that, like, forces you to be in action is really meaningful.

SEGARRA: What would you say are some common mistakes that mentors make?

DUKULY: One of the first that comes to mind is not asking for anything in return, which sounds maybe wrong, but here's why. If I'm giving up time, energy, resources, I want to know, like, how it's going for you. I want to know that you had a win. One of the first people I mentored, she was so great about this, and it really set the tone for future mentee, like, expectations that I had. Like, she would be like, hey, I just wanted to let you know I had this interview, and I didn't get the job, but I really learned this thing. And I was like, awesome, great. But it, like, guided me because it actually felt like it wasn't just about, like, the time. It's like, she really felt invested in making sure that, like, I was really part of her journey. It wasn't just transactional. So...

SEGARRA: Explicitly ask for that from your mentees.

DUKULY: Yeah. Love the idea of saying, like, hey, I want to be in the loop of, like, how things are going for you. Can you keep me posted? I would love to know if you try something and it doesn't work. I would love to know if you try something and it does work.

SEGARRA: OK, I want to try something.

DUKULY: OK.

SEGARRA: So I am going to - and I love this because I get to, like, put on my pretend hat...

DUKULY: Let me get comfy.

SEGARRA: ...And be maybe sometimes kind of annoying.

DUKULY: OK.

SEGARRA: OK. So I'm going to give you some scenarios.

DUKULY: OK.

SEGARRA: Let's say that I have approached you to be my mentor, and you're probably going to say yes, but you want to clarify what we're going to work on together and how you can help.

DUKULY: OK.

SEGARRA: Hey, Massella. I just admire you so much. I think you're really great.

(LAUGHTER)

SEGARRA: And I was wondering if maybe you could give me some advice on my career stuff.

DUKULY: Yeah. You know, Mari, I really appreciate that. I am great. I believe that about myself, too.

(LAUGHTER)

DUKULY: But yeah, I would love to do it. But before we kind of, like, agree to all of this, I'm just curious. You said talk about your career. Is there something specific that you're hoping to discuss?

SEGARRA: Just - I want to be you.

(LAUGHTER)

DUKULY: OK. I appreciate that, and what I'll say is this. I want to be able to best help you. I want to feel like any time that we spend together really feels worthwhile to you, and I think that the best way I can do that is by making sure that you are coming into yourself, not coming into trying to be like me. So I totally get that sometimes it can feel overwhelming to know exactly what that is, but maybe we can try this out, like, have our first meet and see how it goes, and maybe in that meeting we can define two or three things that you would like to, like, take away from this that feel really tangible. That way we can, like, measure it in time and see if it's working. How does that sound?

SEGARRA: OK. I think that went well.

DUKULY: I think so, too.

SEGARRA: But I was super awkward, right? And I came in like...

DUKULY: A little off (ph), a little off.

SEGARRA: I just, like, have heart eyes, you know, when I look at you, and then you're sort of giving me homework to do, too.

DUKULY: (Laughter) Yeah.

SEGARRA: Like, come to me next time with a list of things, three things that you'd really like to learn, three skills. OK, one last one.

DUKULY: OK.

SEGARRA: I am your mentee, and you are ready to break up with me.

DUKULY: Ooh. All right.

(LAUGHTER)

SEGARRA: What do you say?

DUKULY: Hey, Marielle. How are you?

SEGARRA: Hey. So good.

(LAUGHTER)

DUKULY: Hopefully good without me.

(LAUGHTER)

SEGARRA: I love these sessions so much, by the way, Massella. Like, I feel like - I just love talking to you every week. You're, like, the highlight of my week.

DUKULY: Thank you so much.

(LAUGHTER)

DUKULY: So I do want to talk about that, though, because beyond enjoying maybe, like, our relationship - because I really like you; like, I really like talking to you - do you feel like it's helping you move along in the goals that we discussed earlier when we first started meeting?

SEGARRA: I think maybe just talking to you makes me feel calm and like I can approach job interviews and things with confidence and - I don't know. It just keeps me really grounded, this relationship.

DUKULY: I mean, I definitely think that that is a huge benefit. But that being said, like, I want to make sure that you're really getting something tangible out of this. I'm curious. Like, we can approach this a few ways. One, does it feel helpful for us to maybe be a little bit more explicit about those goals and see if we can be better about reaching them? Or, two, are you thinking that maybe there are new goals that we can look at? And then a third option is that, like, maybe this isn't the right fit. And if I'm not the right person for you, I want to make sure I can help you find somebody who is.

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DUKULY: It's scary.

SEGARRA: It's actually kind of hard to do these. I get - like, my heart starts pounding a little bit when I have to say, like, awkward things to people, even though that wasn't a real conversation.

DUKULY: (Laughter) But it's real.

SEGARRA: But yeah, that was great. It's real. It does happen.

DUKULY: I've done something like this before. And, like, this is one point that I want to make so clear. And this is not just for mentor-mentee relationships. This is for all relationships. You can enjoy someone, and they could be not the right thing for you - a job, romance, whatever. Right? You know what I mean? Like, there are people who are like, I like you a lot.

SEGARRA: Yeah.

DUKULY: And also, this isn't serving me. And I think we have to make that distinction. I think sometimes people get real caught up in, like, I like you.

SEGARRA: Yeah. I love that. I love broadening out at the end of the episode to something, to - sometimes we do that, and the final note is just, like, take a deep breath.

DUKULY: Yeah.

SEGARRA: Today it's, you know, you might like something, and it might not be serving you.

DUKULY: Yeah, 100%.

SEGARRA: Yeah. Massella, thank you so much. This has been really great.

DUKULY: Thank you.

(APPLAUSE)

DUKULY: Thank you, everyone. What a pleasure.

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SEGARRA: Love that conversation with Massella. And she had a lot of good tips. So let's recap. If you want to be a mentor, think about what you have to offer. Do you have particular skills? Like you're really good at public speaking or data analysis or whatever. And what kind of time do you have to offer? Also, once you're considering a mentee, ask them what they're looking for. What are you trying to achieve together? Once you are working together, be clear about how often you're available to meet, how quickly you might email or text them back and basically what your expectations are of each other. Ask for something in return, meaning it's not too much to ask your mentee to tell you how they're doing or to keep you updated on how the job search is going. And remember, you should be learning from your mentee, too. This is a relationship, and we all have something to teach each other.

For more LIFE KIT, check out our other episodes. We have one with Massella about how to give good feedback, and we have another episode about how to be a good mentee. You can find those at npr.org/lifekit. And if you love LIFE KIT and want more, subscribe to our newsletter at npr.org/lifekitnewsletter.

This episode of LIFE KIT was produced by Sylvie Douglis. Our visuals editor is Beck Harlan, and our digital editor is Malaka Gharib. Meghan Keane is the supervising editor, and Beth Donovan is the executive producer. Our production team also includes Andee Tagle, Audrey Nguyen, Clare Marie Schneider, Mia Venkat and Danielle Nett. Julia Carney is our podcast coordinator. Engineering support comes from Carleigh Strange, Patrick Murray and Neil Tevault. Special thanks to Devon Williams and Jessica Goldstein. I'm Marielle Segarra. Thanks for listening.

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玛丽埃尔·塞加拉，主持人：

这是NPR的LIFE套件，其中包含帮助您将其组合在一起的工具。

（音乐原声）

塞加拉：嘿，大家好。玛丽埃尔·塞加拉在这里。生活中会发生这样的事情。一旦你在工作、爱好或育儿方面获得了一些经验，你可能想分享它，传授你正在学习的东西，让下一个爬你身后山的人更容易一些。你想成为一名导师。在今天的LIFE KIT上，我们有一个关于指导的特别节目。这是我和媒体和咨询公司Charter的工作场所战略和创新主管Massella Dukuly之间的对话。我们在布鲁克林的On Air Fest上在观众面前现场表演，这是音频制作者的活动。我们谈论谁可以成为导师，分享有关如何构建这些关系的技巧。我们甚至做了一些角色扮演，她是导师，我是她睁大眼睛的学员。

（音乐原声）

SEGARRA：所以我想早点谈谈我的一位大学教授所说的WIIFM。

马塞拉·杜库利：好的。

塞加拉：她——我在大学里上过这堂演讲课。她会在黑板上写下WIIFM，这意味着，这对我有什么好处？我试图在任何演讲中记住这一点。但总的来说，如果你在谈论某件事，就像，我相信我们都有兴趣成为我们内心善良的导师。而且，这不是单方面的关系，对吧？就像，成为导师还有其他原因。

杜库利：百分之一千。因此，我的组织Charter，我们最近实际上与Qualtrics合作，对导师与学员的关系进行了一些研究。具体来说，就像，我们试图弄清楚，你能虚拟地建立稳固的导师和学员关系吗？事实是你绝对可以。但我们意识到的另一个发现是，就像成功的导师与学员的关系一样，导师经常觉得他们得到了一些东西。所以，我认为真正不幸的是，我们倾向于假设，你知道，如果你是一个导师，你只是，就像，善意地给予你的心，如此可爱，真的很好。但真的不应该是这样。

当你思考时，你知道 - 导师能得到什么？- 我想说，首先，这是他们发展技能的机会。擅长一件事并不意味着你擅长帮助别人擅长那件事。因此，学习能够教学，以一种真正富有成效的方式进行交流，是其他收获之一。我认为，从本质上讲，它通常会让人们在他们正在做的事情上做得更好。

其次，我还要说，新视角。这方面的一个例子 - 我有一个朋友有一个学员。她会对我说，她没想到这段关系中最疯狂的事情之一就是她非常欣赏这个人冒险的事实，比如，会对所有事情都说“是”，因为被指导者认为这只是一个成长的机会。这真的让她能够思考如何在生活中更有意识地冒险。而且，你知道，随着关系的发展，她意识到她正在承担更多的风险。这感觉非常值得。

塞加拉： 好的。那么谁能成为导师呢？

杜库利：我的意思是，任何人都可以。但这确实需要勤奋和了解如何建立对您和学员都有意义的结构。所以为了很容易分解它，我想说，谁能成为导师？首先，有人渴望成为导师，有人愿意构建与人的关系。这可以是建立节奏，建立关系中的责任。而且，就像，对于它的价值，有时可能很难。就像，作为人类，我们并不总是那么擅长说，这就是我需要你做的。因此，如果你想让你的导师和学员关系运作良好，你就需要考虑这些事情。

SEGARRA：你可以得到的另一件事，你可以从成为导师中获得的另一个价值，可能是学习如何进行这些对话以及如何沟通。

杜库利：当然。绝对。。。

塞加拉：是的。

杜库利： ...因为如果这些事情没有发生或运作不佳，你将需要谈论它们。

塞加拉：是的。

杜库利：而且，你知道，有时冲突会让人感到不舒服。或者有时反馈可能很可怕。但这对于确保你不会延长一段关系真的很重要。想想你最终造成的损害，如果你不直言不讳地说这感觉不对，或者这不起作用，或者这就是我需要的。

塞加拉：对。所以如果你没有时间，也许，比方说，指导某人......

杜库利：是的。

塞加拉： ...但是你想以某种方式帮助他们，你认为他们很有才华，也许你提出做一个介绍......

杜库利：对。

塞加拉： ...给他们的人。或者 - 是的，或者帮助他们结识有时间并且可以成为他们导师的其他人。

杜库利：当然。绝对。

塞加拉：是的。还行。因此，如果你确实想成为一名导师，如果你对此感到兴奋，你在哪里找到学员？

杜库利：这很棘手，因为有一个空间，就像，你不想对某人居高临下，然后看着你。我可以帮你。就像，那不...

（笑声）

杜库利：这听起来不太好。我认为，就像 - 这就是事情的核心，尤其是对于学员，这是关于建立关系的。你真的想要一个觉得他们可以对你开放和脆弱的人。所以我认为要做的核心事情之一就是非常积极 - 积极明确地表达你想要什么，所以能够说一些类似的话，嘿，就像，我觉得我有X，Y和Z技能。我不会，你知道，把它说成，就像，我什么都很棒。我想帮助每个人。它说，我 - 你知道，我真的很喜欢沟通。我认为这是我，你知道的，感觉自己很精通，或者觉得我做得很好。我很乐意支持那些对此还不那么有信心的人，并让人们可以自己破译他们的需求是什么。

也许你在工作场所就是这样做的。也许你在学校就是这样做的。另一件事 - 我看到它实际上非常有帮助的方式是，就像，与朋友分享它，对朋友说，嘿，我真的很有兴趣与某人分享这种特殊的技能。如果您认识任何可能感兴趣的人，请告诉我。我发现特别是当有一个接触点时——当我说接触点时，并不是说你不能随机认识某人。就像，我在Q列车上遇到了我的丈夫，你也是。但我会说...

（笑声）

塞加拉： 哇。

杜库利：我做到了。我知道。我们就像，让我们谈谈这个。

（笑声）

杜库利： 他没有谋杀我，所以你知道...

（笑声）

身份不明的人：喜欢你。

杜库利：（笑声）没错。但我的意思是，你知道，当你得到一点社会证明时，这真的很好。这个人认识这个人。对彼此有一点责任。与朋友交谈，谈论你的需求，这样其他人就可以清楚地谈论这些愿望，并希望建立联系。我们都想以某种方式匹配。也许这不是那种关系或浪漫关系。但它可以是导师或学员。

塞加拉： 好的。我想还会有更多的场景，潜在的学员来找你，对吧？

杜库利：是的。

SEGARRA：你如何确定它是否合适？

杜库利：好的，所以一些不同的事情。首先，比如，从你自己开始。我有时间提供这个人吗？我可以对这个人诚实吗？有时，当有人来找你时，他们说，嘿，我很佩服你;我希望你在这件事上的支持。至少对我来说，比如，如果有人给我发电子邮件，我可能会回答，就像，我不 - 就像，这很粗鲁。

塞加拉： 非常亲切。

杜库利：而且，就像，我只是想表现得好一点。就像，我只是想提供帮助。我可能无法，比如，带你到终点线，但就像，我会回应。但这和说，比如，我要和你谈恋爱是非常不同的。所以有对时间，能量的评估，所有这些类型的东西。

我想衡量的另一件事是他们正在寻找什么。因此，真正不幸或某种程度上 - 在导师与学员关系的早期出错是当这个人喜欢时，我只是想要帮助。我想，用什么？就像，我也在试图弄清楚。比如，你需要什么帮助？而且 - 我不是说你必须有清晰的画面，比如，给我点A，B，C，你知道，这个角度，那个角度。但需要有一定程度的清晰度。如果有人对你不清楚，就很难真正取悦他们。比如，他们想要什么，你怎么能真正服务得好？

然后，比如，你的期望是什么，对吧？比如，可以吗？因此，如果我对某人说，嘿 - 比如，我有一个导师，我可能一起工作了大约六个月，她想要它只是在这段时间内。她正在经历一个她正在从事的项目。而且，你知道，我想，听着;我会回复你——比如，如果你给我发短信或其他什么，我这次可能无法回复，但我会回复，你知道，在这个时候。就像，你知道，这看起来很交易，但这真的很重要，因为我们消除了任何假设、恐惧或关系中可能令人恐惧的事情。就像，我发短信，他们没有给我回短信。会发生什么？但事情是这样的。有人可能会说，你知道吗？我实际上需要一种关系，在这种关系中，我得到了更多的这种关系，比如，你能给予什么，这有助于我们互相选择。

塞加拉：是的。

杜库利：所以我只是认为你想在双方面前都非常清楚，这样双方就可以决定这是否是他们想要的。

SEGARRA：昨天有人向我引用了Brene Brown的话 - 清晰就是善良。

杜库利：我同意。谢谢你，布莱恩。

塞加拉：是的。

（笑声）

SEGARRA：这非常 - 对某人说，这是我能提供的，这是我不能提供的，这是有帮助的。

杜库利：是的。

塞加拉：也许你是他们的导师之一。你知道的？

杜库利：是的。

塞加拉：不过，我想考虑到这一点，你是否必须进行官方定义的关系谈话？比如，你会成为我的导师吗？

杜库利：是的。你知道，它并不总是以这种方式开始。

塞加拉：是的。

杜库利：但我确实认为清楚是善良的。我确实认为，具体来说，当你想从某人那里得到一些东西时，如果不清楚，它只是 - 就像，它注定会让你失败。我唯一与奥普拉有不清楚的导师关系的人是，比如，奥普拉，你知道，“因为......

（笑声）

杜库利： ...我不认识她，她也不认识——就像，你知道我的意思吗？这就像，好吧，女孩...

塞加拉： 她不知道自己是你的导师。

杜库利： ...无论你想做什么，你想给我什么，我都会接受。但是，就像，在大多数情况下，它只是，就像 - 能够说，就像，我选择成为 - 你不必有定义，你是我的导师。如果你想说，这是我支持我的朋友，如果你想说，这是我的大哥，如果你愿意——无论你想用什么都没关系，但需要有一个理解。这也是为什么，在任何关系中，无论是浪漫的还是友谊的，比如，我们是同事，我们是朋友，我们是任何东西，然后我们在这些关系中分配不同的责任。我认为这就是在边界方面有帮助的地方。通常，有时这些东西会模糊不清。但如果你注意到，这通常就是为什么它往往会变得混乱，因为突然之间，这是一回事，现在是另一回事。所以为了这个缘故，因为你想要一些具体的东西，我认为你需要定义它。

SEGARRA：我在你之前的回答中听到的是，学员应该推动这种关系，并说，这就是我正在寻找的;这就是我需要帮助的。我还想象，有些人，特别是如果他们处于职业生涯的早期，可能不知道如何创建这种结构。作为导师，您是否可以帮助指导他们并说，例如，这是您可能正在寻找的示例，或者这是对我有帮助的信息？

杜库利：是的，绝对是。我想你要非常清楚这样一个事实，比如，改变他们的想法是可以的。进化是可以的。还要非常清楚，比如，如果有什么变化，它不再与我们的关系保持一致，比如，让我知道。就像，不仅仅是导师应该像，你做这个，这个和这个。这个人需要被收买进入这段关系。这是一种关系。因此，导师可以提供结构建议，但它需要像，你怎么看？把学员带入体验中，如果他们喜欢，我不知道我在想什么，我只是相信你，你可以说，好吧，很酷。让我们试一试，看看是否有效，下次我会让你试试这个。我认为，我们真的想在关系中建立一些互惠关系，这样这个人就会感到自在地领导和决定什么对他们真正有用。

塞加拉： 好的。因此，如果您正在构建此结构，那么在开会频率方面是否有最佳实践？

杜库利：是的。因此，我们在与Qualtrics的研究中发现的一个发现是，非常成功的导师 - 学员关系 - 非常成功，我的意思是那些相信在六个月内，他们与导师解决了大约70%到81%的目标的人 - 实际上每周见面一次。

塞加拉： 好的。

杜库利：所以这很有趣，因为我必须 - 是的。我看到其中一些人说，哦。和。。。

塞加拉：有点多。

（笑声）

杜库利：是的。

塞加拉：是的。

杜库利：我们都喜欢，时间——它在哪里？你知道，然后我们就像在沙发上回家一样。

塞加拉：是的。

杜库利：Netflix就像，你还在看这个吗？

塞加拉：是的（笑声）。

杜库利：但是，就像，就是这样。我认为这是关于节奏的，对吧？所以每周一次 - 即使对我来说，我也想，哦，这很多。但人们通常会一连串地这样做。所以你可能会说，我这样做了三个月。我这样做了六个月。这通常不是，就像，一个持续的，费力的事情。它说我们要休息一段时间，我们要做这件事，我们要做点什么。所以对我来说，我想，好吧，这是有道理的。但是，是的，每周一次 - 你知道，如果你不能推动它，因为生活，你知道，我会说，即使它，比如，每隔一周一次，但真正试图致力于一些事情，比如，迫使你采取行动真的很有意义。

SEGARRA：你认为导师们常犯的错误是什么？

杜库利：首先想到的就是不要求任何回报，这听起来可能是错误的，但这就是原因。如果我放弃时间、精力、资源，我想知道，比如，对你来说，情况如何。我想知道你赢了。作为我指导的第一批人之一，她对此非常满意，这确实为未来的学员定下了基调，就像我的期望一样。就像，她会说，嘿，我只是想让你知道我有这次面试，我没有得到这份工作，但我真的学到了这件事。我当时想，太棒了，很棒。但它，就像，引导我，因为它实际上感觉它不仅仅是时间。就像，她真的觉得很投入，以确保我真的是她旅程的一部分。这不仅仅是交易。所以。。。

塞加拉：明确要求你的学员这样做。

杜库利：是的。喜欢说，嘿，我想进入循环的想法，比如，事情进展如何。你能及时通知我吗？我很想知道您是否尝试某些方法并且不起作用。我很想知道您是否尝试过某些东西并且确实有效。

塞加拉： 好吧，我想尝试一些东西。

杜库利：好的。

塞加拉： 所以我要去——我喜欢这个，因为我可以戴上假装的帽子......

杜库利：让我舒服一点。

塞加拉： ...有时可能有点烦人。

杜库利：好的。

塞加拉： 好的。所以我要给你们一些场景。

杜库利：好的。

SEGARRA：假设我已经找到你做我的导师，你可能会说是的，但你想澄清我们将要合作做什么，以及你能如何提供帮助。

杜库利：好的。

塞加拉： 嘿，马塞拉。我只是太佩服你了。我觉得你真的很棒。

（笑声）

SEGARRA：我想知道你能不能给我一些关于我职业的建议。

杜库利：是的。你知道，玛丽，我真的很感激。我很棒。我也相信我自己。

（笑声）

杜库利：但是，是的，我很想这样做。但在我们同意这一切之前，我只是好奇。你说谈谈你的职业。你希望讨论一些具体的事情吗？

塞加拉： 只是——我想成为你。

（笑声）

杜库利：好的。我很欣赏这一点，我要说的是这个。我希望能够最好地帮助你。我想觉得我们在一起度过的任何时间对你来说都是值得的，我认为我能做到的最好方法是确保你进入你自己，而不是试图像我一样。所以我完全理解，有时确切地知道那是什么会让人感到不知所措，但也许我们可以尝试一下，比如，第一次见面，看看进展如何，也许在那次会议上，我们可以定义两三件你想做的事情，比如，从这个感觉非常有形的东西中带走。这样我们就可以及时测量它，看看它是否有效。听起来怎么样？

塞加拉： 好的。我认为进展顺利。

杜库利：我也这么认为。

塞加拉：但是我超级尴尬，对吧？我进来就像...

杜库利：有点不对劲，有点不对劲。

SEGARRA：我只是，就像，有心的眼睛，你知道，当我看着你时，然后你也给我布置家庭作业。

杜库利：（笑声）是的。

SEGARRA：比如，下次来找我，列出一些东西，三件你真正想学的东西，三项技能。好的，最后一个。

杜库利：好的。

塞加拉： 我是你的学员，你准备和我分手。

杜库利：哦。好吧。

（笑声）

塞加拉：你说什么？

杜库利：嘿，玛丽埃尔。你好吗？

塞加拉： 嘿。很好。

（笑声）

杜库利：希望没有我很好。

（笑声）

SEGARRA：顺便说一下，我非常喜欢这些会议，Massella。就像，我觉得 - 我只是喜欢每周和你说话。你，就像，我一周的亮点。

杜库利：非常感谢。

（笑声）

杜库利：所以我确实想谈谈这一点，因为除了享受我们的关系之外，因为我真的很喜欢你;比如，我真的很喜欢和你说话——你觉得这有助于你实现我们之前刚开始见面时讨论的目标吗？

SEGARRA：我想也许只是和你说话会让我感到平静，就像我可以自信地对待工作面试和事情一样——我不知道。它只是让我真正接地气，这种关系。

杜库利：我的意思是，我绝对认为这是一个巨大的好处。但话虽如此，我想确保你真的从中得到了一些有形的东西。我很好奇。就像，我们可以通过几种方式解决这个问题。第一，也许对这些目标更明确一点，看看我们是否可以更好地实现这些目标，这对我们来说是否有帮助？或者，第二，你是否认为也许我们可以考虑新的目标？然后第三种选择是，也许这不是合适的。如果我不是适合你的人选，我想确保我能帮你找到合适的人选。

（笑声，掌声）

杜库利：太可怕了。

SEGARRA：实际上很难做到这些。我明白了——就像，当我不得不对人们说一些尴尬的事情时，我的心开始有点跳动，即使这不是一次真正的对话。

杜库利：（笑声）但这是真的。

塞加拉：但是，是的，那很棒。这是真的。它确实发生了。

杜库利：我以前做过这样的事情。而且，就像，这是我想说清楚的一点。这不仅仅是针对导师与学员的关系。这适用于所有关系。你可以享受某人，但他们可能不适合你——一份工作，浪漫，随便什么。右？你知道我的意思？就像，有些人喜欢，我很喜欢你。

塞加拉：是的。

杜库利：而且，这对我不利。我认为我们必须做出这种区分。我认为有时人们真的会陷入其中，比如，我喜欢你。

塞加拉：是的。我喜欢这个。我喜欢在剧集结束时扩大到某件事，有时我们会这样做，最后的音符只是，就像，深呼吸。

杜库利：是的。

SEGARRA：今天，你知道，你可能喜欢一些东西，但它可能不会为你服务。

杜库利：是的，100%。

塞加拉：是的。马塞拉，非常感谢你。这真的很棒。

杜库利：谢谢。

（掌声）

杜库利：谢谢大家。真是太高兴了。

（音乐原声）

塞加拉：喜欢和马塞拉的对话。她有很多很好的建议。因此，让我们回顾一下。如果你想成为一名导师，想想你必须提供什么。你有特别的技能吗？就像你真的很擅长公开演讲或数据分析或其他什么。你必须提供什么样的时间？此外，一旦您考虑了学员，请询问他们在寻找什么。你们想一起实现什么目标？一旦你们一起工作，就要清楚你们多久见面一次，你们可以多快地给他们发电子邮件或短信，以及你们对彼此的期望是什么。要求一些回报，这意味着要求你的学员告诉你他们过得怎么样，或者让你了解求职的最新情况并不过分。请记住，您也应该向您的学员学习。这是一种关系，我们都有一些东西可以互相教导。

有关更多生活套件，请查看我们的其他剧集。我们和马塞拉有一个关于如何提供良好反馈的节目，我们还有另一集关于如何成为一名优秀的学员。您可以在 npr.org/lifekit 找到这些。如果您喜欢LIFE KIT并想要更多，请在 npr.org/lifekitnewsletter 订阅我们的时事通讯。

LIFE KIT的这一集由Sylvie Douglis制作。我们的视觉编辑是Beck Harlan，我们的数字编辑是Malaka Gharib。梅根·基恩（Meghan Keane）是监督编辑，贝丝·多诺万（Beth Donovan）是执行制片人。我们的制作团队还包括Andee Tagle，Audrey Nguyen，Clare Marie Schneider，Mia Venkat和Danielle Nett。朱莉娅·卡尼是我们的播客协调员。工程支持来自Carleigh Strange，Patrick Murray和Neil Tevault。特别感谢Devon Williams和Jessica Goldstein。我是玛丽埃尔·塞加拉。感谢您的聆听。

（音乐原声）

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