lex fridman Michael Stevens访谈（中英双语）part2

 But I want to make it clear at all times that like, look, you know, we don't know all the answers and I don't think we're ever going to reach a point where we're like, wow, and there you go. That's the universe. It's this equation. You plug in some conditions or whatever and you do the math and you know what's going to happen tomorrow. I don't think we're ever going to reach that point.

 

但是我想让所有人都知道，就像，你看，我们不知道所有的答案，我不觉得我们会到达一个点，就像，哇，这就是宇宙。这是方程。你添加一些条件或 whatever 之后，进行数学计算，你知道明天会发生什么。我不觉得我们会到达那个点。

 

But I I think that there is a tendency to sometimes believe in science and become elitist and become, I don't know, hard when in reality it should humble you and make you feel smaller. I think there's something very beautiful about feeling very, very small and very weak and to feel that you need other people. So I try to keep that in mind and say, look, thanks for watching. Vsauce is not I'm not Vsauce. You are. When I start the episodes, I say, hey, Vsauce, Michael here. Vsauce and Michael are actually a different thing in my mind. I don't know if that's always clear.

 

但我认为有时人们会相信科学，变得精英主义，并且有时可能会变得困难，但实际上这应该让你感到谦逊并让你感觉更小。我认为感受非常小、非常弱并且需要其他人是非常美好的。所以我试图记住这一点，并说，看，谢谢你观看。Vsauce并不是我，我不是Vsauce。你是。当我开始剧集时，我会说，嘿，Vsauce,Michael在这里。Vsauce和Michael实际上是不同的事物，我不知道这是否总是清晰明了。

 

But yeah, I have to approach it that way because it's not about me. Yeah. So it's not even you're not feeling the responsibility. You're just sort of plugging into this big thing that is scientific exploration of our reality. And you're a voice that represents a bunch. But you're just plugging into this big Vsauce ball that others, millions of others are plugged into.

 

然并卵，我这样做是因为我并不是主角。这并不意味着你没有责任感。你只是在某种程度上进入了这个巨大的项目——对我们的现实进行科学探索。你是一个代表一群的声音。但你只是进入了其他人——数百万其他人所进入的大Vsauce球。

 

Yeah. And I'm just hoping to encourage curiosity and, you know, responsible thinking and an embracement of of doubt and being OK with that. So next week, talking to Christos Goodrow, I'm not sure if you're familiar who he is, but he's the VP of engineering, head of the quote unquote YouTube algorithm or the search and discovery. Yeah. Let me ask first high level. Do you have do you have a question for him that if you can get an honest answer that you would ask But more generally, how do you think about the YouTube algorithm that drives some of the motivation behind No. Some of the design decisions you make as you ask and answer some of the questions you do.

 

是的，我只是想希望鼓励好奇心，认真负责的思考，并接受怀疑，没问题。所以下周与克里斯托弗·戈德沃恩交谈，我不知道他是谁，但他是工程VP,YouTube算法或搜索和发现负责人。是的，让我首先问一些问题。你有问他的问题吗？如果你能够得到诚实的回答，你会问他的。但更一般地，你如何看待YouTube算法，它驱动某些动机，你提问和回答问题时做出的设计决策。

 

 How would you improve this algorithm in your mind in general So it's just what would you ask him And outside of that, how would you like to see the algorithm improve Well, I think of the algorithm as a mirror. It reflects what people put in. And we don't always like what we see in that mirror. From the individual mirror to the individual mirror to the society. Both in the aggregate, it's reflecting back what people on average want to watch. And when you see things being recommended to you, it's reflecting back what it thinks you want to see.

 

 您会在一般意义上如何改进这个算法呢？因此，您会问他，然后除了算法本身，您还希望它如何改进？
我将其视为镜子。它反映人们投入的内容。但我们并不总是喜欢在镜子里看到的内容。从个体镜子到个体镜子到社会，它们的总和反映人们平均想要观看的内容。当你看到东西被推荐给你时，它反映的正是它认为您想要看到的内容。

 

And specifically, I would guess that it's not just what you want to see, but what you will click on and what you will watch some of and stay on YouTube because of. I don't think that this is all me guessing, but I don't think that YouTube cares if you only watch like a second of a video. As long as the next thing you do is open another video. If you close the app or close the site, that's a problem for them because they're not a subscription platform. They're not like, look, you're giving us 20 bucks a month no matter what.

 

此外，我猜测这不仅仅是你希望看到的内容，而是点击的内容和观看的一些内容，以及留在YouTube的原因。我不是说这完全是猜测，但我认为YouTube不会关心你只观看了几分钟的视频。只要接下来你做的事情是打开另一个视频。如果你关闭应用程序或关闭网站，那就是他们的一个问题，因为他们不是一个订阅平台。他们不像，看看，无论你做什么，我们都给你20美元。

 

 So who cares They need you to watch and spend time there and see ads. So one of the things I'm curious about, whether they do consider longer term sort of develop your longer term development as a human being, which I think ultimately will make you feel better about using YouTube in the long term and allowing you to stick with it for longer. Because even if you feed the dopamine rush in the short term and you keep clicking on cat videos, the eventually you sort of wake up like from a drug and say, I need to quit this.

 

所以，谁在乎呢？他们需要观看并花费时间，然后在YouTube上查看广告。所以，我好奇的一件事情是，他们是否考虑长期发展人类作为人类的存在。我认为，最终这将会让你在使用YouTube的长期来看感觉更好，并让你更长时间的坚持下去。即使你在短期内享受多巴胺 rush，最终你也许会像从毒品中醒来一样，说，我需要停止这个。

 

 So I wonder how much they're trying to optimize for the long term. Because when I look at the, you know, your videos aren't exactly sort of no offense, but they're not the most clickable. They're both the most clickable. And I feel I watch the entire thing and I feel a better human after I watched it. Right. So like they're not just optimizing for the click ability. Because this is I hope. So my thought is, how do you think of it And does it affect your own content Like how deep you go, how profound you explore the directions and so on.

 

我想知道他们是否在长期中试图优化。因为我看，你的视频并不是故意的，但它们并不是最吸引人的。它们都是最吸引人的。看完整个视频后，我感到自己变得更是人类了，对吗？所以，它们并不是仅仅为了点击能力而优化。我希望这是真的。所以我的思考是，你怎么看它，它对你的内容有何影响，比如你深入探索的方向，你挖掘的深度等等

 

 I've been really lucky in that I don't. Worry too much about the algorithm. I mean, look at my thumbnails. I don't really go too wild with them. And with minefield, where I'm in partnership with YouTube on the thumbnails, I'm often like, let's pull this back. Let's be mysterious. Usually I'm just trying to do what everyone else is not doing. So if everyone's doing crazy Photoshop, what kind of thumbnails I'm like, what if the thumbnails just align And what if the title is just a word And I kind of feel like all of the Vsauce channels have cultivated an audience that expects that.

 

我运气比较好，我没有过度担心算法。我的意思是，看看我的摘要。我并没有真的去过分使用它们。与我面临的障碍有关，我在摘要上与YouTube合作，我常常想，我们要停止这一切，保持神秘。通常我只是试图做其他人都不做的事情。所以如果每个人都在疯狂做 Photoshop，我是怎样的摘要，如果摘要只是对齐，如果标题只是一个词，我似乎感觉所有 Vsauce 频道都培养了期望这种情况的观众。

 

And so they would rather Jake make a video that's just called stains. Than one called I explored stains. Shocking. But there are other audiences out there that want that. And I think most people kind of want what you see the algorithm favoring, which is mainstream traditional celebrity and news kind of information. I mean, that's what makes YouTube really different than other streaming platforms. No one's like, what's going on in the world I'll open up Netflix to find out. But you do open up Twitter to find that out.

 

所以他们更愿意让Jake 制作一个名为“ Stains”的视频，而不是名为“I Explored Stains”的视频。这让人震惊。但还有很多观众想要那种被算法青睐的内容，也就是传统的名人和新闻资讯。我想说的是，这就是 YouTube 与其他流媒体平台真正不同之处。没人会想要打开 Netflix 来了解世界的情况，但确实有人想要打开 Twitter 来了解那些被算法青睐的内容。

 

 You open up Facebook and you can open up YouTube because you'll see that the trending videos are like what happened amongst the traditional mainstream people in different industries. And that's what's being shown. And it's it's not necessarily YouTube saying we want that to be what you see. It's that that's what people click on when they see Ariana Grande, you know, reads a love letter from like her high school sweetheart. They're like, I want to see that. And when they see a video from me that's got some lines in math and it's called Law and Causes, they're like,

 

打开Facebook和打开YouTube，因为你会看到流行趋势的视频就像不同行业传统主流人士发生的一样。这就是被展示的。这并不意味着YouTube希望观众看到的内容是你所看到的。这是指当人们看到Ariana Grande读取她的高中情人的情书时，他们会点击，就像他们想要看到那样。当他们看到我从数学中画出的一些线条并被称为法律和原因的视频时，他们会说，

 

 well, I mean, that I'm just on the bus. Like, I don't have time to dive into a whole lesson. So, you know, before you get super mad at YouTube, you should say, really, they're just reflecting back human behavior. Is there something you would improve about the algorithm Knowing, of course, that as far as we're concerned, it's a black box, so we don't know how it works. Right. And I don't think that even anyone at YouTube really knows what it's doing. They know what they've tweaked, but then it learns. I think that it learns and it decides how to behave. And sometimes they're the YouTube employees are left going,

 

我的意思是，我只是站在一辆公交车上。比如，我没有足够的时间来深入学习整个课程。所以，你知道的，在你对YouTube愤怒之前，你应该说，真的，它们只是反映人类的行为。你能改进算法哪些方面，当然，我们对它是一台黑盒子，所以不知道它是如何工作的。对。我甚至认为，即使YouTube的员工也不清楚它在做什么。他们知道他们微调了什么，但它会继续学习。我认为它会继续学习并决定如何行为。有时候，YouTube的员工不得不继续。

 

 I don't know. Maybe we should change the value of how much it worries about watch time. And maybe it should worry more about something. I don't know. But I mean, I would like to see. I don't know what they're doing and not doing. Well, is there a conversation that you think they should be having just internally, whether they're having it or not Is there something should they be thinking about the long term future Should they be thinking about educational content and whether that's educating about what just happened in the world today, news or educational content like what you're providing, which is asking big, sort of timeless questions about how the way the world works Well, it's interesting.

 

我不知道。或许我们应该改变它对于时间担忧的价值。或许它应该更多担忧一些事情。我不知道。但我的意思是，我希望能看到。我不知道他们在做什么。那是否有内部的对话，是否他们正在内部进行。是否有一些关于长期未来的思考。是否他们正在思考今天世界所发生的事情，新闻，或者像你所提供的内容，提出一些大而永恒的关于世界运作方式的问题。这很有趣。

 

What should they think about Because it's called YouTube, not our tube. And that's why I think they have so many phenomenal educational creators. Yes. You don't have shows like Three Blue One Brown or Physics Girl or Looking Glass Universe or Up and Atom or Brain Scoop or. I mean, I could go on and on. They aren't on Amazon Prime and Netflix, and they don't have commissioned shows from those platforms. It's all organically happening because there are people out there that want to share their passion for learning, that want to share their curiosity, and YouTube could, you know, promote those kinds of shows more.

 

他们应该如何看待YouTube。它被称为YouTube，而不是我们的tube。这就是为什么我认为它们拥有众多教育创作者的原因。是的，你并没有像Three Blue One Brown、物理学女孩、Glass Universe、Up和 Atom、脑 Scoop或类似的节目。我的意思是，我可以继续列举下去。它们并不在亚马逊prime和Netflix上，它们也没有从这些平台上的委托节目。这一切都 organic 地发生，因为世界上有人想分享他们的学习热情，分享他们的好奇，YouTube 可以更多地推广这种类型的节目。

 

 But like, first of all. They probably wouldn't get as many clicks, and YouTube needs to make sure that the average user is always clicking and staying on the site. They could still promote it more for the good of society. But then we're making some really weird claims about what's good for society, because I think that cat videos are also an incredibly important part of what it means to be a human. I mentioned this quote before from Uno Muno about, look, I've seen a cat like estimate distances and calculate a jump, you know, more often than I've seen a cat cry. And so things that that play with our emotions and make us feel things can be cheesy and can feel cheap. But like, man, that's very human.

 

不过，首先，它们可能不会像以前那样引起更多的点击，YouTube需要确保普通用户总是点击并保持在网站上。他们仍然可以更多地推广这门课程，为社会作出贡献。但是，我们在关于对社会作出贡献的问题上提出了一些非常奇怪的观点，因为我认为猫视频也是人类的一部分，也就是人类的一个重要组成部分。我之前提到了Uno Muno中的这段话，就像我之前提到的，我曾经见过一只猫估算距离并计算跳跃，比看到一只猫哭泣的次数更多。因此，那些会玩弄我们的情感并让我们感受到事物的东西可能会变得虚假并且感觉低廉，但是，人，这真的很人类。

 

 And so even the dumbest vlog is still so important that I don't think it I have a better claim to take its spot than it has to have that spot. So it puts a mirror to us, the beautiful parts, the ugly parts, the shallow parts, the deep parts. You're right. What I would like to see is, you know, I I miss the days when engaging with content on YouTube helped push it into my subscribers timelines. It used to be that when I liked a video, say from Veritasium, it would show up in the feed on the front page of the app or the website of my subscribers.

 

所以你即使是最愚蠢的视频也仍然非常重要，我认为它不应该有任何权利占据这个 spot，而应该让这个位置属于它。所以它给我们展示了我们美丽的部分、丑陋的部分、肤浅的部分和深刻的部分。你是正确的，我希望看到那些视频，比如 Veritasium 的视频，它们可以在应用程序首页或我的订阅者网站上出现。曾经，当我喜欢一个视频时，它会出现在应用程序首页或我的订阅者网站上的推荐 feed 中。

 

And I knew that if I liked a video, I could send it 100,000 views or more. That no longer is true. But I think that was a good user experience. When I subscribe to someone, when I'm following them, I want to see more of what they like. I want them to also curate the feed for me. And I think that Twitter and Facebook are doing that in also some ways that are kind of annoying. But I would like that to happen more.

 

我还知道，如果我喜欢一个视频，我可以发送它达到100,000或更多的 views。这已经不再是事实了。但我认为这是一个良好的用户体验。当我订阅某个人时，当我跟踪他们时，我想看到他们更多喜欢的东西。我想他们也为我整理消息。我认为推特和Facebook也在一些方式上这样做，这有些令人讨厌。但我希望这种情况更多发生。

 

 And I think we would see communities being stronger on YouTube if it was that way instead of YouTube going, well, technically, Michael liked this Veritasium video, but people are way more likely to click on Carpool Karaoke. So I don't even care who they are. Just give them that. Not saying anything against Carpool Karaoke. That is a extremely important part of our society. What it means to be a human on Earth. You know, but I'll say it sucks. But but a lot of people would disagree with you. And they should be able to see as much of that as they want. And even people who don't think they like it should still be really aware of it, because it's such an important thing and such an influential thing.

 

"还有，技术上，Michael喜欢这个Veritasium视频，但人们更有可能点击车间卡拉OK。所以，我连他们是谁都不在乎。只要给他们这些。不能说任何反对车间卡拉OK的事情。这是现代社会的一个极其重要的部分。人类在地球上意味着什么。你知道，但我会说它很糟糕。但很多人会不同意你。他们应该能够想要什么就得到什么。甚至那些认为不喜欢它的人也应该非常意识到它，因为它是如此重要和有影响力的事情。"

 

 But yeah, I just wish that like new channels I discover and that I subscribe to. I wish that my subscribers found out about that, because especially in the education community, a rising tide floats all boats. If you watch a video from Numberphile, you're just more likely to want to watch an episode from me, whether it be on Vsauce1 or Ding. It's not it's not competitive in the way that traditional TV was, where it's like, well, if you tune into that show, it means you're not watching mine because they both air at the same time.

 

但是我仅仅是希望我能发现新的频道并订阅它们，因为我希望能让 我的订阅者们知道这些频道，特别是在教育社区中，趋势推动一切。如果你观看 Numberphile 的视频，你更有可能观看我的剧集，无论是在 Vsauce1 还是 Ding 上观看。这并不像传统电视那样具有竞争关系，就像你可能会选择观看那个节目而不是我的，因为它们同时播出。

 

 So helping each other out through collaborations takes a lot of work. But just through engaging, commenting on their videos, liking their videos, subscribing to them, whatever that I would love to see become easier and more powerful. So a quick and impossibly deep question. Last question about mortality. You've spoken about death as an interesting topic. Do you think about your own mortality Yeah, every day. It's really scary. So what do you think is the meaning of life that mortality makes very explicit So why are you here on Earth, Michael What's the point of this whole thing What You know, what does mortality in the context of the whole universe make you realize about yourself Just you, Michael Stevens Well, it makes me realize that I am destined to become a notion. I'm destined to become a memory and we can extend life.

 

因此通过合作互相帮助需要花费很多时间和精力。但仅仅是互动、评论他们的视频、喜欢他们的视频、订阅他们，我就希望能让这些感觉变得更加轻松和更强大。所以这是一个快速而深刻的问题。最后一个问题是关于死亡的。你曾经将死亡视为一个有趣的话题。你想过自己的死亡吗？每天都想。这真的好可怕。所以你认为生命的意义是什么，死亡 makes it very explicit，所以为什么你会来到这个世界，Michael，这整个事情的目的是什么？你知道，在整个宇宙中，死亡的意味着什么？仅仅是你，Michael Stevens，它让我意识到，我注定要成为概念。我注定要成为回忆，我们可以延长生命。

 

 I think there's really exciting things being done to extend life, but we we still don't know how to, like, you know, protect you from some accident that could happen, you know, some unforeseen thing. Maybe we could like save my connectome and like recreate my consciousness digitally. But even that could it could be lost if it's stored on a physical medium or something. So basically, I just think that. Embracing and realizing how cool it is that, like, someday I will just be an idea and there won't be a Michael anymore that can be like, no, that's not what I meant. It'll just be what people like they have to guess what I meant. And they'll remember me. And how I live on as that memory will will maybe not even be who I wanted to be.

 

在我看来，延长寿命确实令人兴奋，但我们仍然不知道该如何保护你避免可能发生的事情，比如一些意想不到的事情。也许我们可以保存你的基因连接，数字化重建你的意识，但这也有可能失去，如果你存储在物理媒介上或者一些未知的事物中。所以，我只是觉得，接受并意识到，就像，有一天我将只是想法，不再有一个迈克尔，不会再有那种令人激动的，令人兴奋的感觉了，不对，那并不是我的意思。它只是一种人们猜测我真正想要表达的东西。他们会记住我，我会继续生活，就像那个记忆可能并不是我想成为的人。

 

 But there's something powerful about that and there's something powerful about letting future people run the show themselves. I think I I'm glad to get out of their way at some point and say, all right, it's your world now. So you, the physical entity, Michael, has have ripple effects in the space of ideas that far outlives you. Yeah. In ways that you can't control. But it's nevertheless fascinating to think, I mean, especially with you. You can imagine an alien species when they finally arrive and destroy. All of us would watch your videos to try to figure out what were the questions. But even if they didn't, you know, I still think that there will be ripples like when I say memory, I don't specifically mean people remember my name and my birthdate and have like there's a photo of me on Wikipedia. Like all that can be lost.

 

但是它有一种强大的力量，让未来的人们自己来掌控这个世界。我认为我很乐意在某些时候摆脱他们的控制，说，好吧，现在轮到你了。因此，你作为一个实体，迈克尔，在思想空间中产生了深远的影响，这比你的生命更为持久。是的，以一种你无法控制的方式。但我仍然感到着迷，特别是与你在一起的时候。你可以想象一个外星种族最终到达并摧毁我们的世界。我们会观看你的视频，试图找出这些问题。但即使他们没有解决这些问题，你知道，我仍然认为会有些涟漪，就像当我说记忆时，我并不是指人们记得我的名字和出生日期，就像在维基百科上存在一张我的图片。所有这些都是可以失去的。

 

But I still would hope that people ask questions and teach concepts in some of the ways that I have found useful and satisfying. Even if they don't know that I was the one who tried to popularize it. That's fine. But if Earth was completely destroyed, like burnt to a crisp, everything on it today, what would what the universe wouldn't care Like Jupiter is not going to go, oh, no. And that could happen. That could so we do, however, have the power to, you know, launch things into space, to try to extend how long our memory exists. And what I mean by that is, you know, we are recording things about the world and we're learning things and writing stories and all of this and preserving that is truly what I think is the essence of being a human. We are. Autobiographers of the universe, and we're really good at it. We're better than fossils. We're better than light spectrum. We're better than any of that.

 

我仍然希望人们能够以我找到的有用和令人满意的方式提出问题，教授概念。即使他们不知道我是试图推广它的人。没关系。但如果地球被完全摧毁，就像烧焦一样，今天的一切，宇宙不会在意，就像木星不会动，哦，不，那可能会发生。那可能会发生。我们可以这样做，但也可以发射物品进入太空，试图延长我们的记忆的持续时间。我的意思是，我们正在记录世界的事情，学习东西，写故事，所有这一切，并保存它，真正我认为是人类的本质。我们是宇宙的自传体，我们做得很好。我们比化石好。我们比光频好。我们比任何形式的都好。

 

 We collect much more detailed memories of what's happening, much better data. And so that should be our legacy. And I hope that that's that's kind of mine, too, in terms of people remembering something or having some kind of effect. But even if I don't, you can't not have an effect. That's not me feeling like I hope that I have this powerful legacy. It's like no matter who you are, you will. But you also have to embrace. The fact that that impact might look really small and that's OK. One of my favorite quotes is from Tessa, the D'Urbervilles, and it's along the lines of the measure of your life depends on not your external displacement, but your subjective experience.

 

我们收集了更详细的关于正在发生的事情的记忆，更好的数据。所以，这应该成为我们的遗产。我希望这也能是我的遗产，从人们记得某些事情或产生影响这方面来说。但即使我不记，你也可以没有影响。这并不是我希望拥有这样强大的遗产的感觉。就像无论你是谁，你都会拥有影响。但它也要求你拥抱这个影响可能看起来很小的事实。我最喜欢的引用来自《德伯维尔的故事》，它的意思是，生命的衡量不仅取决于外在的流离失所，也取决于你的主观体验。

 

 If I am happy and those that I love are happy. Can that be enough Because if so, excellent. I think there's no better place to end it, Michael. Thank you so much. It was an honor to meet you. Thanks for talking to me. Thank you. It was a pleasure. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Michael Stevens. And thank you to our presenting sponsor, Cash App. Download it. Use code Lex Podcast. You'll get $10 and $10 will go to first a STEM education nonprofit that inspires hundreds of thousands of young minds to learn, to dream of engineering our future. If you enjoy this podcast, subscribe on YouTube. Give it five stars on Apple Podcast. Support on Patreon or connect with me on Twitter. And now let me leave you with some words of wisdom from Albert Einstein. The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existence. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.

 

如果我感到快乐，并且我所爱的人也感到快乐，那是否可以足够呢？如果是这样，那太好了。我认为最好的结束方式是没有其他更好的地方可以结束，Michael。非常感谢你的到来。见到你很高兴。感谢你与我交谈。非常感谢。很高兴能与你听这个对话。下载并使用Lex Podcast代码。你会得到10美元，而这10美元将用于支持STEM教育非营利组织，激发数千年轻人学习、梦想创造我们的未来。如果喜欢这个 Podcast，可以在YouTube订阅。在苹果 Podcast 上给它打5星。在 Patreon 上支持，或在Twitter上与我互动。现在让我留下一些Albert Einstein的智慧。重要的是不要停止提问。好奇有其存在的原因。当你思考永恒的问题、生命的奥秘、现实奇妙的结构时，你一定会感到敬畏。只要每天尝试理解一点点这些奥秘，就已经够了。非常感谢你听这个对话，希望下次还能与你见面。